Is it worth paying for a private education or can state schools really manage a very bright boy?

[AvenaLife]

Just wondering. ds(9) starts a new school in a couple of weeks, I've just spent a small fortune on his uniform and have yet more fees that will push me to the verge of destruction. Is it really worth it though? The school's lovely, small classes and ds will have a great time. He's ahead by 5 years in maths and at least 7 years for literacy but can a state school really accomodate him? He's outspoken and likes to be listened to (I know this is a problem) so I think he'll have problems but at the same time the fees are a huge burdon. I think I just need some kind words please.

[kaz33]

How about judo? - great for teaching discipline and general social skills.

My 7 year old who is similar to yours, bright but no idea how bright he is IFYSWIM, he is socially behind his peers, doesn't know when to keep his head down and when threatened comes out fighting. He is also very sponge like, what goes in come straight back out again. Anyway DS1 hates all sport, is definitely a bit dxyspraxic is really enjoying the judo. He has a very positive teacher who provides discpline with praise - a very heady mix. There is lot of physical contact from an early age, which is quite unlike other martial arts I think.

[JaneLumley]

Avenalife, we've nearly gone broke putting ds and dd through private schools. And yet the schools don't really cope with ds, though he has sensibly learned to cope with them. Which in itself is well worth doing.

On the bursary front, do you rent your house? If not sell it (but the credit crunch and tumbling house price, aaagh!) as this will make you a much stronger candidate. Schools don't create bursaries for any kids whose parents are on a middle-class income, however brilliant the child.

Buckinghamshire has grammars too.

[ManIFeelLikeAWoman]

I would consider state grammar if at all possible - you say you are willing to move, how about Kent?

Though I was never explicitly assessed (state primary much less formal in those dsays) I was apparently reading as a 15 year old when I was about 7 or 8, and was attempting 3rd year (year 9 in new money) maths exams from the local grammar school when I was 10. I ended up doing languages at Oxford and then teaching them at Edinburgh. So I think I can relate to your son in some ways. Grammar school (where I was also top in most subjects) was great for me (though I now struggle with it on moral grounds.)

As for the constant questions, that rings a bell too. But "I don't know," "why don't you look it up and tell me about it later?" and "let's discuss this this evening" are all acceptable answers (or can become so with practice) - the same as they are with bright adults. The only real no-no's are not taking him seriously, lying, or outright ignoring him. The rest is, as someone else has said, a valuable life lesson.

[Clairwil]

You wrote " ds(9) starts a new school in a couple of weeks, I've just spent a small fortune on his uniform and have yet more fees that will push me to the verge of destruction. "

I can't tell from your posts precisely where your son is on the gifted scale, but if he is likely to get top exam results and a place at a top university, it might be worth asking the private school about scholarships, or even if they'd be prepared to go to their donors and ask for a scholarship to be created.

[AvenaLife]

Thanks mrz .

[mrz]

You should take a look at state schools if your son is interested in studying philiosophy my school along with many others include it as a normal part of our curriculum from nursery upwards. I'm shocked that a school where you are paying the type of fees you are is having to "slot it onto the curriculum"

[AvenaLife]

I'm going to phone the new school in the morning and ask about a busary. It doesn't say on any of the information that they have sent me or on their web site that they are only for the senior school. Failing this I'll try to get another job. I'm going to have a look around some of the local schools though so I can see what they have to offer just incase things go completely pear shaped.

I think the fact that schools can be free was a big temptation. I forgot about the fact that they are also the luck of the draw with regards to how they are run and taught.

I couldn't teach him at home.He needs far more stimulation that I can offer him, no matter how much I try. I'll see how the new places panns outand have a rethink if needs be. They appear to be far more accepting of his personality than his old school but I shall have to wait and see. I'm still trying to encourage him not to argue as much though. I don't think this willhelp him in the long run. I could be wrong here though.

Thankyou for all your help. It's difficult doing this alone, I doubt myself and am always wondering if I'm doing the right thing because I don't have anyone I can talk to about things. My mum's useless when it comes to things like this, his other gran wanted him to go to his new school then asks if it's a good idea him going there.

Thanks again

[AvenaLife]

Thankyou Lijaco. It sounds like such a tempting option, I could spend the money on treats (holiday, theatre tickets, music lessons). I foget about the crap experience I had at school in the hope that things will be different now. Everyone's experiences arevery mixed from what I can gather off my thread. It seems to be down to luck rather than anything else as to whether a school can manage or not. It's very sad for the children that don't have this chance. You've put things into perspective alot better. Thankyou.

[lijaco]

I have encouraged my children to have opinions and to speak out. We are just an ordinary family and I have 4 boys. I believe boys need to be taught completely differently to girls and if I could afford to send my child to a private school for boys then I would. My eldest son was exceptionally clever and very far from a geek. In secondary school it isn't cool for a boy to be clever and it is better to be one of the crowd. If you can afford to keep your child in private I would. My personal opinion is that state schools are failing boys especially. There is no compromise. On the positive if your child is smart though with a mind of their own they should be ok. State schools have not got the time really to specifically teach individually, including learning styles. Some teachers are dedicated and some not. It is the luck of the draw. Most kids are unable to achieve their full potential due to, time, lack of funding, social problems/areas etc. The current state education system is a worry for me also because you want the best for your child.

[AvenaLife]

Thanks Honoria. I've already done this. The new head is confident that ds will be OK and he doesn't mind quirky boys as they are often the ones that contribute more to the class and get the others thinking. He said they have only ever rejected one child beause of their behaviour, they give each child a book with what is expected of them and who to see if they have a problem on the first day. Anyone up to mischief will get told what they have done. If they are sent to him he will ask what they have done, if they don't know they are sent to ask, then are made to write lines so that they remember the rules in future. I think it will help him as he will know what is expected and he will know that he will not get kicked off clubs for laughing or put in with the 3 year olds for eating with his knife and fork in the wrong hands. It just seemed over the top in my opinion, I havn't told ds this though.

I'm teaching him only little kids answer back, as well as other things. I shall see.

[HonoriaGlossop]

Private schools IMO are more likely to be more rigourously keen to produce what you describe in your last post Avenalife; they want their results and of course kids who do as they are told and don't waste time getting in trouble, are more likely to knuckle down and produce the results.

Agee with heated that his social 'lacks' may well be less noticed in state school. I'm aware these are generalisations BTW but 'moulding' is not so possible with a non-selected intake of 30 per class - no time to mould 'em!

Maybe tell your DS that he is not a really clever boy until he can learn not to answer the teachers back! Is he proud of his cleverness? Highly aware of it? Perhaps it would sink in to him, if so, if it's put in those terms - answering back/arguing inappropriately is not a bright thing to do - he KNOWS he will get in trouble....

I'm sure that is not the way to do it BTW but my goodness it must be frustrating that he's not learning this when he can learn everything else!

I think state/private debate aside, whatever school he goes to, if this was me I would request a meeting with the Head/teacher/Senco if there is such a person and bring home to them just how much of a problem this has been, and ask them to tell you how they will deal with it, so that you can support them in it and best help ds to learn.

[AvenaLife]

It just seemed like his old school wanted children with no life and soul, did as they were told, never in trouble, did reasonably well at tests. He just didn't fit in once the new head took over. He told one family there was no longer a place for their child because they disagreed with his religious belief (so I've been told).

He looks about 7 so people tend to let him get away with answering them back, then I look like a harsh mum when I tell him off. It can be so embarassing.

I am worried about bullying though. I like the rest of his personality though. He's so much fun, he's full of life and emphusiasm. I've never met anyone like him before. I just want him to be able to work with other people and not a geek with no friends and enemies of the teachers.

[Heated]

I teach bright boys and even at 14 and 15 some just don't get the concept of the social lie that'll smooth their path or keeping their head down for an easier life; the principle is everything. Your ds is only 9 though and social graces, for want of a better word, take time to be acquired.

Sometimes state school is good for them in the sense that other pupils tolerate so much from them (they make for good entertainment/secretly they admire their gumption) and then they get to the point of irritating and told to shut up. And their peers' approbation is everything. However, for those truly socially unaware or awkward it can be crushing and can lead to bullying, it totally depends on the environment.

Gobby geeks are very much tolerated and liked where I work !

[AvenaLife]

Sorry, last message to squeekypop.

Lou: It's OK. I wrack my brains all the time thinking whether he's like this because of the way I parent him. He's overcome so much. I was sad to move him from his school because he's made so many friends because of the changes he has gone through, I just didn't think the inconsistencies were helping things, I don't expect his to conform fully, I think this would be asking too much of him and I wouldn't want to change all of his personality, just the bits that will make it difficult for him when he is older but he needs to try fit in though, but this wasn't enough for the head. He's far from an adult and has so much to learn, I'm constantly telling him this. It's hard going though.

[AvenaLife]

The 1% of the time makes up for the 99% .
He's polite (the cleaners all think he's lovely and well mannered), he's caring (picks up little children when they have fallen over, looks after and plays with ones that are being bullied), he's patient, he's loving and fairly helpful at home. He's a bit boisterous at times but never violent/malicious. He's very good natured, fun but can be a clown.

The school he was at didn't like him answering the teachers back. He likes to get his point across or would not know what he had done. They saw this as him trying to argue his way out of trouble. I wouldn't want him to start his new school like this. It's not the new start I want him to have.

[lou031205]

AvenaLife, I am sorry if you thought I was criticising your handling of this. You clearly have an awareness of his need to learn social boundaries, it just didn't come across in your OP. You seemed to be accepting that he thought he should be treated as an adult.

I am glad he is getting there - life will be a little easier for him when he does.

[SqueakyPop]

He sounds like the perfect child - good behaviour 99% of the time. What is the real problem?

[AvenaLife]

Heated: Thanks, I am just wondering whether the state system would cater for him better. There's more access to professional support so there are plus and negative points. I think I'm just getting pre wedding school jitters. I have made a decision, daunting as it is.

Lou: I really am trying to help him to learn what is appropriate and what is not. He is doing this, he's had the odd set back but most of his progress has been positive. I have asked for help on here before for him but I can honestly say that he's not the same as he was when I needed to do this. I am trying to teach him to button it. He's getting there, he's polite 99% of the time, he's considerate and patient but he's not had the support from school that would have helped him get there faster. It is my responsibility, I accept that but if he has one person saying one thing and another saying something completely different then it's hard going.

I don't know if it's the right way to go or not but I'm trying to teach him that sometimes people have reasons for needing others to do something/not to do something and it's OK just to do them without asking why. He hasn't grasped this yet though. He wants a reason for everything. I have boundaries when he's with me, he's fine (unless he's with his friend, even then he's pulled up if he crosses the bondary). They are probably old threads you remember, he's not the same anymore. I just need to tweak this.

[lou031205]

Avenalife, I have to say that I have often read your threads and thought that what your son needs more than anything is a firm set of boundaries regarding social boundaries. Please don't think I am being critical, I am speaking as a former child-who-saw-the-injustices-of-the-world.

I was a bright kid, possibly not scarily, as your son, but I was assessed as having the IQ of an 8 year old at the age of 2.

I remember finding it impossible to accept the injustices that presented themselves at school. For instance, why was I made to do art when I was clearly much better at maths. Other children were allowed to do maths while I had to do art.

I was very unhappy at secondary school, and had frequent disagreements with my teachers, because they were often hypocritical. A clear example being the head teacher berating children for wearing make-up whilst wearing the whole of a maxfactor counter. Or the teacher telling a girl off for having a little necklace on, whilst jangling 10 bracelets on one arm.

I was bored at times, but actually what I needed was to realise that sometimes life isn't fair, and that there is a difference between your personal viewpoint, and your behaviour.

Your son can wholeheartedly disagree with a teacher's point of view, and when he gets to Uni it will stand him in good stead. But until then, he will have to learn that there is a time and a place for his opinion, and that he has to learn to show respect to his teachers in class time. Whether he actually FEELS respect for them is irrelevant. (I personally think that respect is earned, not deserved) He has to learn that there are times when he has to button his lip, put his head down and do his work.

It won't do him any favours to wait until his adult years to learn that there will always be someone with more authority than you, and that you sometimes have to learn a bit of diplomacy.

[Heated]

Having made this choice to private ed I think you need to bite the bullet and get on with it. It wouldn't be fair to keep moving schools, especially if this school is going to push him academically and be more tolerant of his personality.

I know families who have downsized their house to fund their children's education, extended their mortgages and, whilst looking back, I realise what a frugal existence we lived for my mum to put my brother and I through prep school. There is of course a financial cut-off point and the recent hikes in private ed fees have been substantial but certainly whilst it's feasible, do it imo.

This level of personal sacrifice is quite common in London where Stabvest High simply isn't an option so lots of parents go private out of what feels like necessity, but in Derby you might feel more out on a limb, but there will be other parents doing exactly as you are doing.

If my dcs school doesn't cater for their needs, I might well be joining you!

[AvenaLife]

I'm just not sure whether he knows he's overstepped the line or not. It's so hard to tel with him. He's so bright I'm sure he must know what he's said but he's so convincing and looks so remorceful. I agree with the social skills. I've been using a book at home to help him, it's worked wonders here. I recommended it to his teacher, he said he would get a copy but he didn't. He's not to bad at recognising emotions, he can tell when I'm pissed off etc. We sit and people watch when we are in town and I get him to look at people's expressions to think of how they are feeling. He's good at this. Socially, he does tend to feed off other children, if he's with someone silly, he'll be silly. If he's with someone quiet then he'll be quiet. If he's with someone argumentative then he'll be the same back. It's difficult sometimes. He has a friend at his old school who is very immature. We went to the cinema with him and his mum and they were a nightmare, the kid wanted to run around, I wouldn't let ds because I don't want him behaving that way so ds was in a right strop. I don't think the lemming training is working in the right way. He's fine with me though, the odd backchat. I can't be with him all the time though. I've banned him from seeing his friend and I feel bad about that.

[AvenaLife]

I dont debate with him, he'd never stop talking and I'd end up shouting at him so I don't do this.
I'm trying to teach him that if he is asked/told to do something/not to do something then he shouldn't reply. If he is asked an open ended question (why/how/if etc) then he can reply, aswell as trying to accet what he is told. Do you think this is wrong though? The problem I have is that he will say "what have I done?" "I don't know what I've done". It's always the same. I don't know if he's aware that he's back answered and he's trying to open a discussion or if his mouth has overtaken his brain and he truly doesn't know what he's done. If I tell him he's always appologetic, 9/10 times he doesn't repeat it. They didn't tell him at school though so he'd spend all day worrying about what he'd been told off for if you see what I mean. I'm not sure how to solve this one. I need to get him to engage brain before opening mouth.