Gifted with maths at 4?

[goodatmaths]

Hello,

I was in a waiting room today and my child was doing a maths game. Someone told me they worked with children and asked me how old the child was. I told them that they were 4, they then told me the child seemed gifted. I have heard this from a nursery teacher and a few friends.

My child can sum, subtract, multiply and divide. They can do simple fractions like 1/2 and 1/4. Their vocabulary is vast. They have started to read but only simple words.

This child consumes vast amounts of information and is always asking to learn more. They ask Alexa for times table song, they finish everything I give them. The challenge for me is that they never stop. So I guess my question is.

1. Do they sound gifted?
   
2. What resources (magazines, pages, apps) can I give them access to that are fun and they can learn?
   
   I want to foster their natural curiosity but do not want to feel crazy pressure to perform at such an early age.
   
   I appreciate any guidance.

[MusicMum80s]

It’s difficult to say if your child is gifted based on the information provided but if they are interested in math NRich is a good resource for games and activities for young children.

Games like Squeebles and Teach Your Monster are fun educational apps that many children enjoy.

[extrastrongmints]

1. quite possibly - e.g. it's very early to have grasped division, though in the fight club that is the MN G&T page there'll be half a dozen people along in a minute to say no.
   
2. you can't really access (proper) magazines until the reading is further along. To help get there you could use the songbirds phonics by Julia Donaldson (set of 36 books) and the happy families books by Alan Ahlberg (20 books).. Reading opens all kinds of doors for their natural curiosity. Once reading well, magazines: "Aquila", and "the week Science & Nature" - but they really need a reading age around 10 to access, which takes a couple of years even with rapid progress. Leapfrog have some good apps and DVDs for early literacy/numeracy but (at least when I got them several years ago) you needed a DVD player that could read multiformat/US format DVDs. Dragonbox and Squeebles make apps our kids enjoyed around that age. "Maths whizz" and "Beast Academy" are two (subscription-based) websites you might want to have a look at. You could also think about chess or a musical instrument soon. piano or strings are possible at that age

[Overrunwithlego]

They sound pretty gifted. My DS at that age was definitely well above average. On his first day in reception when asked to read numbers (e.g. 7,3,5,2) read them as seven thousand, three hundred and fifty two, which surprised his teachers. But he certainly wasn’t doing any multiplication, division or fractions at that age. He’s currently in year 10 and had a target grades of 8 or 9 pretty much across the board - and has been put forward for further maths. So he’s very bright, but not at the level where he would be doing his GCSE at age 10 like you sometimes see! So I would guess that a child doing what you describe at age 4 would be pretty gifted.

[Jazzybean]

My son knew all his times tables up to 12 at 3.5 (he could work them out, rather than just parroting back IYSWIM). He’s almost 5 now and definitely well ahead of the curve but he’s not as keen on doing maths as he was a year ago when it was all he was interested in

I honestly wouldn’t push it. Being clever is great, but so is having friends and being well rounded. If a child has natural ability it will happen on its own.

One think I would recommend is maths cubes. DS loves making shapes with them. It’s massively increased his understanding of 2d and 3d shapes, square and cube numbers, and even just building different things out of them (mostly transformers currently 🙄) uses basic mathematics and engineering.

[gogomoto]

My dd was like that, I looked at at it as advanced for calendar age rather than something likely to be profound in her life as they develop at different paces. She is naturally very intelligent even as an adult but found the school environment difficult, she's autistic. Maths is definitely her thing. (Along with music) she's an adult now and it's not plain sailing so just feed natural curiosity rather than push

[extrastrongmints]

there's a big difference between "just turned 4 and has never set foot in school" and "turning 5 soon and just finishing reception". If the former, I would say definitely gifted. If the latter, I would say definitely bright with a flair for maths, but more evidence needed before saying gifted. The tricky thing is ultimately there's a continuum of ability, and 11 months at that age makes a huge difference.

[MusicMum80s]

@extrastrongmints exactly. There really isn’t enough detail here as how much instruction (parental / preschool) he’s had makes a big difference. If he’s adding within 20 and can skip count a bit and goes to a good preschool that’s introduced phonics I’d say he sounds bright.

There are lots of definitions of gifted but if you go with top 1-2 percent or higher of the ability range then depending on what instruction they’ve had, a gifted 4 year old is capable of a lot more. Starting reception able to read fluently and doing maths 2 or more years above age related expectations is possible if they’ve had parental instruction or attended an academic preschool.

[MusicMum80s]

However, if he or she has just watched a bit of number blocks and alpha blocks and is entirely self taught etc they may very well be very gifted! Instruction and exactly how old they makes a difference in contextualising their ability.

[Flora56]

What resources (magazines, pages, apps) can I give them access to that are fun and they can learn?

Just carry on with what you’re doing. They’re obviously learning maths from somewhere. Then make sure you don’t lose sight of the bigger picture. Great mathematicians also need to be able to run, jump, climb, socialise, recall stories, sing songs, ride a bike and fasten their own coats etc

Do they sound gifted?

I’m not sure what you mean. I’m not aware of this as an official label within U.K. education. I guess you could try MENSA if you wanted official recognition.

[Quiverer]

I guess the question is whether your child can apply that knowledge practically. If they know what quarters are, would they be able to divide a pile of sweets between four children? If they know that one toy costs 90p, can they work out what three of the same toys would cost?

[monkeysmum21]

Something that nobody talks a in this country is how the brain of a gifted child works at a emocional level. Or at any level, for that matter.
Your kid sounds like gifted and there is so much to it that just push him academically, which is the only help that your school will provide. There’s plenty of books for you to look into and if you can afford it, he can be assessed. If he’s gifted, he may struggle to adapt socially, like any other neurodiverse. But while, there are resources for other conditions, no help it’s in place for this one. Good luck.

[monkeysmum21]

Have you look into this one?

https://potentialplusuk.org/

[goodatmaths]

@MusicMum80s

It’s difficult to say if your child is gifted based on the information provided but if they are interested in math NRich is a good resource for games and activities for young children.

Games like Squeebles and Teach Your Monster are fun educational apps that many children enjoy.

This is a great resource. Thank you

[goodatmaths]

@extrastrongmints

there's a big difference between "just turned 4 and has never set foot in school" and "turning 5 soon and just finishing reception". If the former, I would say definitely gifted. If the latter, I would say definitely bright with a flair for maths, but more evidence needed before saying gifted. The tricky thing is ultimately there's a continuum of ability, and 11 months at that age makes a huge difference.

They are in nursery and starting reception in December.

I realised they learned the concept of division a couple of years ago, I bough 6 cupcakes and told them they could have 1, they said no "it was two each, 2 for mummy, daddy and 2 for them". I talked to nursery and they told me they liked to play with the plastic cakes that were sliced into pieces.

They started watching number blocks and were fascinated, so we kept buying those number blocks mathlinks and they love building cubes. The concept of 1/2 and 1/4 was taught by my husband. My husband was curious if they could grasp the concept.

[goodatmaths]

@Flora56

What resources (magazines, pages, apps) can I give them access to that are fun and they can learn?

Just carry on with what you’re doing. They’re obviously learning maths from somewhere. Then make sure you don’t lose sight of the bigger picture. Great mathematicians also need to be able to run, jump, climb, socialise, recall stories, sing songs, ride a bike and fasten their own coats etc

Do they sound gifted?

I’m not sure what you mean. I’m not aware of this as an official label within U.K. education. I guess you could try MENSA if you wanted official recognition.

Hi @Flora56,

I can see my questions were not very clear. In reality I am not clear myself why I am asking. I was raised by parents that were slightly neglectful.

I have spent significant amount of time developing my child on the emotional side. I have read a lot of books done therapy myself. I make sure they know they are loved.

I want to understand what is expected of me on the academic side based on my child ability. What would good parents do?

My sibling told me that I taught myself how to read before school and the school kept telling my parents that I was bright. My parents felt relieved they didn't need to spend any time teaching me as they had with my sibling. My parents did value education but they thought as long as I was doing well in school that was enough. I asked for more and they said not to worry. I disengaged slightly at school around my teens. I now know I am neurodivergent, although I am "clever" some things are harder to me. No one noticed because they did not pay attention. I have a good job now but it has not been a straight forward road.

I do not want to get them Mensa tested. I already had a couple of parents ask me what I do to teach my child. I do not want that pressure on them. I think it is early. Labels can be very helpful, for me it helped explain a lot of things but they can also be limiting.

[MrsALambert]

My DS is gifted at maths. Similar to your son he was multiplying and dividing with ease at 3 which he had taught himself from watching numberblocks and videos. He is nearly 7 now and still incredibly good at maths, he just ‘gets’ it.
However, he is the youngest in his class and is autistic so we and the school have focused on his emotional well-being and social interactions as well as his inference when reading (very good reader, less able at comprehension).
We play lots of games and introduce him to things he might be interested in such as getting him a watch to see if he wanted to learn time, doing cooking and talking about measuring. I don’t tend to challenge him constantly at this age as our focus is on other areas he finds hard and he uses maths as a fun activity.
I don’t know if that will change as he gets older but we didn’t want to pressure him at a young age when there were so many other things to learn.

[goodatmaths]

@Flora56

What resources (magazines, pages, apps) can I give them access to that are fun and they can learn?

Just carry on with what you’re doing. They’re obviously learning maths from somewhere. Then make sure you don’t lose sight of the bigger picture. Great mathematicians also need to be able to run, jump, climb, socialise, recall stories, sing songs, ride a bike and fasten their own coats etc

Do they sound gifted?

I’m not sure what you mean. I’m not aware of this as an official label within U.K. education. I guess you could try MENSA if you wanted official recognition.

By the way I forgot to say thank you for taking the time to reply.

[goodatmaths]

@extrastrongmints

1. quite possibly - e.g. it's very early to have grasped division, though in the fight club that is the MN G&T page there'll be half a dozen people along in a minute to say no.
   
2. you can't really access (proper) magazines until the reading is further along. To help get there you could use the songbirds phonics by Julia Donaldson (set of 36 books) and the happy families books by Alan Ahlberg (20 books).. Reading opens all kinds of doors for their natural curiosity. Once reading well, magazines: "Aquila", and "the week Science & Nature" - but they really need a reading age around 10 to access, which takes a couple of years even with rapid progress. Leapfrog have some good apps and DVDs for early literacy/numeracy but (at least when I got them several years ago) you needed a DVD player that could read multiformat/US format DVDs. Dragonbox and Squeebles make apps our kids enjoyed around that age. "Maths whizz" and "Beast Academy" are two (subscription-based) websites you might want to have a look at. You could also think about chess or a musical instrument soon. piano or strings are possible at that age

Thank you so much. In reality it matter less to me if they are officially "gifted" but that I am exposing them to areas of interest.

I really like the Julia Donaldson suggestion, I have just ordered. I am assuming you all can tell that I am not an English native. I struggle with phonics, they ask me how to say some things but apparently I say it wrong . Luckily my husband is happy to drive that.

I agree with you, if they can read than they feel empowered and enables them to learn more.

[BendingSpoons]

My 4yo is showing a real love of maths. I always loved maths too, as did DH and my dad. He starts school in September and sounds similar to you. He does fairly complex calculations in his head, often answering before DD, who is 3 years older (and also good at maths!). He is reading basic books too, but that bit has been taught through watching his sister and now bringing reading books home from nursery.

What we do is have chats about numbers. He wanted to know how many steps it was to nursery so I suggested we used my fitbit. We wrote down the start number and he subtracted it from the end number. He enjoys comparing ages e.g. 2DS = his cousin i.e. 2x4=8. We do the classic thing of baking and multiplying quantities. He likes messing around with a calculator.

Nursery have done little bits with him but mainly they have just focused on all the other bits of learning as usual. I worry a bit about school, as my DD was bored in maths. She is now enjoying maths in year 2 where it has a bit more challenge for her. I hope his love of numbers is strong enough he will still get some enjoyment from the teaching!

[ChocChipHandbag]

@goodatmaths

They are in nursery and starting reception in December.

I realised they learned the concept of division a couple of years ago, I bough 6 cupcakes and told them they could have 1, they said no "it was two each, 2 for mummy, daddy and 2 for them". I talked to nursery and they told me they liked to play with the plastic cakes that were sliced into pieces.

They started watching number blocks and were fascinated, so we kept buying those number blocks mathlinks and they love building cubes. The concept of 1/2 and 1/4 was taught by my husband. My husband was curious if they could grasp the concept.

I’m guessing that December is a typo for September?

My DS had similar ability in maths at that age. He’s just finished Year 1 and is still very advanced, does extension work outside his usual class. He’s taken really well to chess and particularly loves anything that involves identifying patterns. The teaching at school is around explaining why they have come to a particular answer, and he’s not allowed to leap too far ahead until he can do that, which can frustrate him but will pay off in the long run I think. However I would not instinctively be able to teach that myself, so it would be worth looking up how you might explain concepts in that way if you want to keep working with your child between now and the start of school. Also keep a close eye to make sure the school is aware.

[sashh]

It might be a bit early for this but you could download 'small basic' it's a simplified programming language where you give instructions to a 'turtle' which draws on the screen.

So you can tell the turtle to go forward 4, turn 30 degrees right and it draws a line then turns. So it combines practical uses of maths.

[Rainbowqueeen]

I’d try stretching them sideways rather than academically. So music or art lessons. Things they won’t get at school.

[ChocBananaSmoothie]

My daughter was like this (though more advanced with the reading) and now has a PhD in a field that uses a lot of very complex maths. What I'd say to my younger self - "relax, the academics are going to be the easy part, people are going to pat you on the back and tell you what an amazing job you're doing (when it's just their natural ability coming through). Just continue providing opportunities. Focus on social and creative pursuits and, above all, their mental health. The academics will always run ahead."

FWIW, one of my others has dyscalculia. Luck of the genes.

[wildpig]

DS is gifted in maths. We didn't do anything with him until he was 7 when we were hit by Covid lockdown and he got severely bored so found him a tutor to stretch him - the tutor has been great because DS can ask as many questions he likes and do as much as he likes with them.

I wouldn't just focus on the maths side though. Go cycling, skiing, have a go at water sports. Play a musical instrument. Do lots of puzzles like magic snake and Rubik's cube.

Obviously can't do them all now, start small, and gradually increase in activities - if your child enjoys maths they will enjoy them too, as they are all related to maths and science!

Let them enjoy life.