Oxbridge thoughts too early?

[mids2019]

I just noticed this thread and was wondering if gifted and talented children could have Oxbridge expectations out anthem too early in their academic careers? If a child insidiously talented in say maths or physics do family members/friends/teachers start dropping Oxford or Cambridge into conversations when discussing the child's potential?

I was just thinking of situations in my school career where gifted and talented students with pristine grade profiles and generally accepted as very intelligent by their peers did not succeed in getting into Oxford (much to the community's amazement). It took a long time for the students to accept rejection as they had been lauded for their intelligence for some time and they couldn't understand how if you are advanced for such a long time how could you not be accepted?

put before them

Is instead of insidiously

Sorry for the spelling errors!

I wish we could all collectively agree that an offer from Oxbridge is NOT the only defining indicator of intelligence.

My DC will probably be aware from early on that Daddy went to Cambridge while I didn't. It's not a big thing in our family... DH also often says I'm cleverer than him... So there will be a whatever vibe and they'll be encouraged to think about what they want from uni, which might or might not be Oxbridge...

@Dotcheck

I agree but with the talented child isn't there always the temptation for family etc. to sort of assume the child will go to one of those two universities and therefore set up an expectation (whether right or wrong)?

As their parent, it is up to you to manage those conversations and not allow family to put undue pressure on your child.

Early academic success won't necessarily translate to an Oxbridge place, and anyway, when the time comes, your child's interests may lie elsewhere. There are many other brilliant universities and a lot will depend on what your child wants to study and which course appeals to them.

No, I don’t think that’s the case. I think I’m much better academically than my DH. I have far better O level and A level grades, and in more subjects. I’m much wider read. I went to a northern comprehensive, he went to a well known public school. He went to Oxford, I didn’t dream of applying. I went elsewhere and got a first. He didn’t.

Not necessarily, they are not the best universities for all subjects for starters, DD's course was ranked 1 in the world (for that subject) it was at neither, nor imperial for that matter

Hmm ... no.

Both of us went to cambridge and our two kids are bright.

But getting a place at oxbridge is competitive and in there's quite an element of luck. After all there are many more kids with great grades than there are Oxbridge places.

I don't assume my kids will necessarily want to go there nor that if they apply they will get in.

If they ask me about it I say it's a great experience and privilege to go there but it's hard to get in and there are many other great universities. And that if they've the right sort of grades when the time comes they could think about it but it would be on a give it a try kind of basis.

Our DD has been aware that DH went to Cambridge and I didn’t, from an early age through general conversation plus the fact we visit Cambridge often so it’s a real place to her. She also knows my Dsis went to Oxford. She is bright but not G&T. She went through a phase of wanting to go there but doesn’t any longer (age 13 now). We have always been positive about uni but not any specific one as times change. We have heard it is very competitive to get in currently, partly due to Covid and partly due to increasing numbers of 18 year olds, so she is aware of that. I also make sure she doesn’t feel she has to aim for uni, she may prefer an apprenticeship when the time comes.

I imagine all families are different so maybe to some children any discussion will feel like setting up expectations whereas in others it definitely isn’t.

DH and I both went to Cambridge so sometimes we talk to them about our experiences, but to be honest things have really changed in the last 20-30 years and there's no expectations from our side that our kids will do the same. We'd rather them choose the paths that are right for them.

Really interesting points from parents who have been to Oxbridge.
I guess many of us wish to emulate their parents so is having Oxbridge educated parents a pressure. It seems not from the replies on this thread but I wonder if this is always the case?

Interestingly my daughter has just done the Bebras computing challenge hosted by Oxford university where the very best face a completion in Oxford. Some of the finalists are hideously intelligent but again it seems an early connection of genius = Oxbridge bound at an early age.

@HenryPotterTheSpare

What are the major changes in your opinion?

Wanting to go to Oxbridge just because it's Oxbridge shows a lack of maturity and understanding of higher education. If my DC want to go to university then I will advise them (as an academic) to let the subject and research expertise of the teaching team guide them. There are plenty of universities in my field that out strip Oxbridge.

@Sleepwalkingintothewall

I agree but I still think parents and even teachers do go for the 'bound for Oxbridge' trope when talking about talented pupils. I don't think it's malign and I think that it is obviously a complement but the danger is expectations are seeded to early?

I'd say the number of applicants has hugely increased in the last few decades and (it might just be me but) I feel there is much more emphasis on the importance of education and high achieving amongst parents and children in Uk.

The proportion of students from state schools has been on the rise and, as someone has pointed out, there are way more students with excellent GCSE and A level results than there are places at Oxbridge. So yes, there is an element of luck in how you gel with your interviewers - it's not just about being bright and knowing the right answers.

I know countless intelligent students who applied to Oxbridge that didn't earn a place, but they ended up shining in their own fields and the jobs they wanted.

I also knew people with anxiety and depression at Cambridge and had a very painful experience there. Oxbridge is not for everybody, and it certainly isn't the best for all the subjects.

All I know is that when I went for my interviews, all the people who seemed amazing and talented, mainly because they told me how amazing and talented they were and how they aced the "easy interview", were never seen again by the rest of us, who thought we had done badly. You have to teach a child to learn, not to know.

It’s a lottery. My very bright niece refused to apply despite (because?) her mother talked about Oxbridge nonstop. My DC is hoping for Cambridge this week…. Fab if an offer is made, but if not, (as he says) he’ll probably have a better time elsewhere. Totally his choice to apply - neither I nor DH are Oxbridge.

Also, I was dead average until sixth form, when all of a sudden I was flojo on the home straight, opening up a giant gap behind me.

OP, I'm a Cambridge grad, was the first (and still only) person in my family to go to Oxbridge.

What I observed while studying there, is that the 'Oxbridge type' really thrives under pressure (8 week terms, essay each week, etc) and typically also gets a lot out of the extra curricular elements (I did a lot of theatre, have good friends who did the sporty thing, etc).

Lots of phenomenally bright kids apply and don't get offers because the interviewers have correctly identified that they would not suit the hot-housing environment.

Rarely, one of those applicants gets offered a place, and that's when there can be very serious MH issues, self-harm, breakdowns, etc.

It's wildly simplistic, as PPs have said, to imply that 'the cleverest young people will study at Oxbridge'. If someone in the family or school is implying this to your child then it's your responsibility to nip it in the bud, honestly.

There are many great University options and zero point in fixating on Oxbridge.

It's a privilege if you grow up in a family where oxbridge is considered an option at all. I'm first generation uni educated and my parents never dreamt oxbridge would be an option even though they knew I was very academic. My school suggested I apply but then discouraged me from going (because 'people like us' won't fit in there...!) 😂 parents and school did assume I would be going to university though which I really resented for a long time, that I felt I had no choice. I think it would've been even worse if they'd been adding oxbridge pressure too.

And for what it's worth, I have 2 oxbridge degrees and now I work in a job that doesn't require any academic qualifications whatsoever so... it's all meaningless really!!

I really think you need to rethink your attitude here, OP. As a pp said, it suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of higher education to fetishise Oxbridge. None of my family had ever stayed at school past fifteen, far less attended university, I wasn’t considered clever at my (failing) school, but I applied to Oxford off my own bat and met DH there. DS is clever, but certainly isn’t fixated on Oxbridge. I agree with @Sleepwalkingintothewall — am also an academic.

How early do you mean when you say 'too early'? Loads of kids shine at primary and and in the early secondary years, then fade away as others come up from behind and overtake them. I really think at that stage of school life it's daft to be whispering Oxbridge at them, as if it's some ultimate goal and the only one that will validate your child's abilities. It's for them to decide, when the time comes, if there are courses there that they'd like to apply for. The truly intelligent will recognise places that offer the right opportunities for them.

Do parents and teachers really describe children as "bound" for oxbridge, though?

Given the luck element and the competition for places that seems mad to me. I would describe my kids as probably bright enough to have a go if they want to. Not as "Oxbridge bound".

I went, and I don’t think I’d want my dc to go… if they were desperate to I’d support them. My dc know I went… but I don’t think they see it as different from any other uni atm. Unless parents big it up and put pressure on, they won’t until they’re older.

I also think you need to examine your attitude. I’ve never heard a parent or teacher describe a child as ‘bound for Oxbridge’ in all honesty… more that come sixth form the school might suggest that they could applg if they wanted to.