Ok,assuming child is very able musically-what is next?

[Worriedandlost]

Dd1 is taking music lessons and considered to be good at it (piano/violin). Assuming that pattern continues, what is next? To carry on with private lessons as it is now or are there other ways? And what is about future, what are employment opportunities for the adult musicians? I have heard that music area is very competitive and low paid. The reason for the question is that dd1 is coming to the point where practicing takes too much of our time and this affects other activities, this is not to mention cost of the lessons, would be nice to know that there are at least remote possibilities to get something back out of it :)

[Strumpetron]

all around!

[Worriedandlost]

For God's sake, why do I need to justify myself? I asked for advice and most grateful for the info I received, I absolutely did not want to give private details as I am perfectly aware where it all ends up! I have a bunch of professional advisers how to deal with my child who know us both in person, why on earth I need advice how to bring up my children from complete strangers from Internet? I did not ask that!

Thanks again to those who kept to the subject, I see pros and cons better know. To the rest-good luck with your own children.

[Worriedandlost]

1805-very disappointed with you.
But thanks anyway.

[mistlethrush]

The thing is, you don't have to do it 'professionally' to enjoy it, even if you have got to that level. Playing violin gives you a great advantage when playing chamber music (something I do a lot of) - there is much more string chamber music than there is wind music - or at least the standard stuff.

Again - I would suggest that you try to ensure that she's practising efficiently rather than pushing the length of playing, particularly at that age. Lots of people I have known that are professional haven't practised that much at that age.

[CinnamonPorridge]

Actually, you did ask for advice.

What I can recommend is to let her find her own way. That does not mean letting her practise on her own as I agree KS1 is too early for that. It means not to plan her future for her but giving her as many opportunities as you can afford.
If you are slightly moany about the cost of lessons you will have a shock paying for Saturday classes in London.

Being musical does not have to mean going into a music career. It can be a great and very social hobby for the rest of her life.

My 14 yo is about to do grade 8 violin (she started aged 10, so yes, very talented), but she does not want to be a professional musician. Her teacher says after grade 8 the real work begins. I agree. My daughter loves the social environment of orchestras, I think it is lovely to be surrounded by peers with the same interests.

The same goes for my 12yo son, who is a very good singer (in a professional choir), he doesn't want to go into a music career, but he loves the choir (and gets paid )

I have never had a single thought about if all the money we spend on their music is going to be rewarded somehow.
Music is part of a well rounded education for me. It is a part of the things we are fortunate to be able to offer our children to expose them to many different aspects of life.

[yorkshirepuddings]

I feel sorry for your daughter too. If she enjoys music just let her learn at an appropriate pace. (3 hours a night is excessive and you have said she doesn't enjoy it.)

You do not need to decide on a career for her.

My son has guitar lessons. He will (probably) never be a professional musician. However he loves playing.

My Dad took up the guitar in his 40s. He is out about 3/4 evenings a week singing with friends and in local folk clubs. It has enriched his life in so many ways. He has no grades and earns no money from it, but I would guess he enjoys music much more than many children practising every night as parents see grades as the only measure of success.

[MrsFuddyDuddy]

I think there is a cultural difference here.

DD went to a school outside the UK where her friends had their career choices mapped out by their parents to the level of selecting particular courses and institutions. They thought that was normal. We thought it was not. My DD chose what she fancied; her school friends had the choice made for them.

I think (though I'm guessing) the OP had previously thought in terms of medicine, law, engineering, accountancy, etc etc for her daughter. She said that both she and her DH had their degrees chosen by parents. So for the OP it is normal for the parents to decide the child's career path. Now that she sees that her daughter has musical ability she is asking what careers are available within music and how to navigate the path.

[Worriedandlost]

MrsFuddyDudd, oh, thanks, at least one person here who tries to understand and not judge! Whilst I do not think it is normal to choose career for you child, I definitely do not think it is wrong for some children. There was a huge topic about former G&T children who are adults now, only few relatively succeeded in life, the rest admitted that were not used to put efforts into what they were doing. I do not think it is their fault, I think it is their parents fault as one cannot rely on child to organise their life-they do not have enough experience for that! And the more able child is the more wasted opportunities are there.
Anyway, as I said, child has certain problems and therefore I have to ensure that there are ways for her.

[Worriedandlost]

CinnamonPorridge, I did not ask about how to bring up my child, did I? I asked about paths she can take in music and this is completely different. I did not need "Oh, let he be a child" sort of advice

[Worriedandlost]

Once again, for those who is just scanning and not reading, I wrote "She does not practice hour a day, it is usually minimum hour a day on one instrument, can be up to three hours together (no hard pushing though!)"

She does not practice three hours a day! I do not push her hard! And she does like it! But of course if something is not right and she needs to repeat her piece for say, 5 times, she starts moaning of course because no one likes boring staff! And it can take long time as child quite unsettled and slightly hyperactive, though music helps her to concentrate!

Guys, I would also appreciate your thoughts on how to minimise practice time if - violin alone is usually 10 pieces, scales+arpeggios, sight reading, and to do it 1)we listen cd 2) we play it twice, as teacher requires 3) if she makes mistake we play it more. this way each piece takes three minute at least-to listen and play (so, 30mins pieces only!). And please do not tell me she is not able if she does not nail it from first time :)

Piano - scales, two A4 page pieces, sight reading, technical exercise for hands (2 to 5).

So, what should we do? To play 4 bars per day only? Change teachers? And yet we never do all homework in one go, it is too much!

[MrsHoolie]

I went to a specialist music school. It was great for me as I was too far from London to go to a music department.
Over half my school year went on to university to do something other than music. Many of them have become lawyers etc. The music school environment totally put them off.
For me the school was perfect but my parents never pushed me,they just encouraged me and I was very keen.
There is a lot of luck involved but it does require a lot of hard work and practice and if you are super talented but don't practice you won't make a career of it.
The chances are she will change her mind every year about what she wants to do eventually.I wanted to be a pig farmer at five years old!

[Worriedandlost]

I just read some old topic here about parent asking how their teenage child can make career in music where child did not start early enough and only did one instrument and the answers were quite depressing. Take another example - Suzuki-he said he wanted to be a performer but it was too late for him to start when he had that dream. There are certain professions you have to start early not to miss the opportunities. And you know what? DH was against dd1 playing violin, it was my idea, but after half an year she started, bought himself a violin and taught himself to play! (he played other instruments before though). And they play lovely duets together now!

[Worriedandlost]

MrsHoolie thank you! I totally agree with what you said!

[CinnamonPorridge]

Where exactly did I write "oh let her be a child"?

[Worriedandlost]

CinnamonPorridge, sorry, you did not, I just mentioned it when answering you.

[1805]

ok - so no more judgey talk.

I disagree that it is essential to start so young. But if your dd enjoys it, then fine. Please be aware of Repetitive Strain Injury though. Her teachers should be on top of that though. Ask her teachers how to minimise practice time. Maybe less pieces??? Quality not quantity???

Also, if dd is autistic, then please be aware that a musicians life can be fairly erratic. You may find she needs an assistant to make sure her diary is ok and she is in the right place at the right time. Also, rehearsals can be very boring and tedious at times, with long periods of sitting still and quiet. I get the feeling though you are looking more towards a solo career rather than on orchestral career though.

[1805]

Does she compose her own tunes/songs and write them down? That would be a good thing to do. Or to compose a soundtrack to a book/tv programme/comic/day out??

Re needing two instruments - then under normal circumstances music colleges require a chordal instrument (usually piano) as a second study. So yes, having two instruments is important. They don't both have to be the same standard though. I was grade 6 piano when I went to College.

[BeckAndCall]

OP you've clearly done a lot of research on your DD's behalf which is great as you know where you stand - nothing worse than getting to 14 and having only one instrument and finding you're years behind your peers and will never catch up.

So as not to repeat others' advice, I'll just raise the question of singing - all serious musicians sing - one on one lessons and training choirs. I think your DD is probably too young to have a wide access at her school to music of the required standard but you should look at county provision for singing. ( singing is a compulsory part of the JD curriculum)

And the two instruments she plays are great, - composers all play piano and she needs an orchestral instrument to get the joy of group music.

Is she old enough yet for NCO? I may have missed that in your posts. Someone mentioned BBCyoung musician - it's too late for 2014 as the first rounds have already taken place but you might think about the 2016 competition - but usually every entrant has a lot of orchestral experience - so build on that.

And the conservatories have some very junior programmes avaialbe - I've never really noticed who they're aimed at but at my DD's JD there is a very young singers group.

If I were you, and I'm not of course, I'd put in singing lessons and a training choir and I'd look into county music groups as my first priorities. After that, everything else just slots into place if its meant to.

[CURIOUSMIND]

Op, you really don't need to start that early to become brilliant professional, or you missed a great deal of chance, you don't. The difference is how easy and fast you make the progress, then take over.
Your DD is so little, you don't need to worry at all. Only small fraction of instrument learners eventurally become professional, but the rest majority is NOT useless.Many of them will play in local orchestral as afterwork activity, or just play at home for own pleasure, isn't that a wonderful hobby? Such a wide range of possiblity when your DD is so little.
How about take her to local festival, they are very gentle competition for a start, but many little stars arise from local festival.

[Rockinhippy]

For goodness sake back off a bit, your DD is still so young, you risk pushing her too far & actually putting her off for good -

encourage her interest by all means, but she is a very young DC, please don't push for your own ends, it's her life, not yours, just because you & DH got a raw deal with that doesn't make it right - just have a look at the problems suffered by many child geniuses, pushed too far by tiger mothers.

FTR my own DD is considered musically gifted - according to her teacher she packed 3 courses into one as she was racing ahead so much, I used to feel if I was spending money on lessons then she should rehearse at expected by her teacher, it became a battle ground, so I backed right off - turned out she didn't need to rehearse as she picked it up instantly & can still pick up her instrument & play everything she learnt - my pushing was counter productive anyway as out came the preteen & she would dig her heels in, so I left it, let her leave her instrument for a while & she's now showing interest again - she was so excited by the music dept at a recent senior school open eve & the teacher spotted her interest & talent & took her off on a private tour & let her play with some other instruments not on display - she's now playing again & looking forward to opportunities at senior school

Our friend is a musician, he pushed his DS to play young & as a result his DS isn't in the least bit interested now & at an age when he should be of his own accord & lots if support in school, but no interest at all, weirdly he seems to use it to rebel against his dad

So do be careful

[Rockinhippy]

Curious minds idea of local festivals is a good one - my own DD was asked to do this recently & though a nervous wreck, she absolutely loved doing it - ironically though considered talented & shows a lot of promise musically - she can sing too & loves performing on stage & those that see her perform all say they can see her making it big one day,

But she wants to be a doctor & keep it as an enjoyable hobby :)

[MrsHoolie]

Personally I would avoid BBC young musician.

Some of my colleagues didn't start the violin til they were 10,and some later so I guess they were very quick learners and obviously talented.

At music school we did hours and hours of aural training every week. I think this was probably the most useful and essential part of my musical education. We had an amazing and inspiring teacher. Even the children with the least training could do the most amazing things after a couple if terms with him.
There are so many duff teachers out there I feel sorry for kids who are talented but aren't reaching their potential. My parents aren't musical and were shocked when my teacher said I was talented. When she suggested music schools my parents didn't even know they existed!

[FrameyMcFrame]

Hi, the violin is a discipline. To succeed you have to sacrifice a lot for practice. The rewards are not great financially. The profession is very stressful and competitive.

Am I selling it to you yet?

Having said that, learning a musical instrument is an extremely enriching thing to do with your time!
Enjoy!

[mistlethrush]

When something is wrong does she play the whole piece again, or just that little bit? The best way to get it right is to just do the tricky bit - several times correctly, then add a note before and afterwards, then the bar before etc.

If she's learning the suzuki method, please make sure that she is actually learning to read music too. So many players come through with fantastic technique etc but put them in an orchestral situation they haven't a clue as they haven't got used to sightreading music particularly at speed - so although they could easily play the music, the fact that they have not learned it first stops them being able to play in the orchestra. 10 pieces - how many of these does the teacher actually hear in the lesson?

[starrystarryknut]

Gosh, well I just came back to look at this. OP I see you say your daughter is autistic. I think the life of a professional musician would be very challenging for someone with those special needs - a musician's life is erratic in hours, locations, and earnings. You need to juggle a lot of different skills and be extremely self-reliant in terms of doing what's needed musically as well as chasing work, running your accounts as a freelance (almost all musicians are) and so on.

Just as an example, let me tell you about my day today. I've just come back from a 3 hour rehearsal; we sight-read our way through a pile of stuff which we're performing on Friday. I had to sit still, listen, count, play, stare into space while others did their bits, and concentrate non-stop. Then I jumped on a train and buzzed home, in time to catch up on a bit of diary management (organising bookings, website, accounts, promotional stuff) and next I've got three hours of teaching. Then as soon as I finish, I grab a bite to eat, and I'm heading out to another rehearsal, this time chamber music preparing for a small concert at a later date, which we are promoting ourselves, so which has no financial guarantees at all attached.

The day is broken up into lots of small but intense bursts of work and involves interacting at a complex level with a lot of people, some of whom I might never have worked with before, or might never again. It is fulfilling and pays OK, but is hard work and requires a lot of flexibility.
None of these things are probably what you envisage for your 4 year old in thinking about a career as a musician, and I doubt they are the kinds of demands that an autistic adult could deal with very easily.

I'm glad you are supporting your child's music, but really - she's FOUR!! Stop worrying about Maxim Vengarov and how old he was when he started. Some musicians start at four, most don't. I personally was 10, and ended up at a London conservatoire and with a good career. You really can afford just to mess around at this stage, be it ballet, brownies, gym, or whatever.