Dealing with a 6 YO who thinks she is in control - ever had it?

[StillSquiffy]

Sorry this is long, don't want to drip feed (also I don't really do concise very well).

Looking for some empathy here more than anything, not sure there are any solutions.

I simply cannot get my DD to do as I want her to. Treats don't work, punishments don't work, ignoring doesn't work. I've tried everything suggested in the books (variously titled around: the Exploding child, the manipulative child, the strong willed child). Everything

She will first decide what is going to happen (eg: it will be warm outside even if temp is actually -2), therefore she will wear a sundress. She will explain this logically then refuse to listen to logical reasons as to why this is not good. She will refuse to change, refuse to listen to you, and eventually if you carry on trying to discuss it, she will go into a full meltdown. If you simply tell her to change she will go into a meltdown. If you suggest that she takes a jumper just in case, she will go into a meltdown. If you go with the flow she would, in this particular situation, stand outside in the cold, smiling and telling you "see! it's warm!" for a few minutes before screaming her head off that she's cold and it's all your fault for letting her wear the sundress (and heaven help you if you have secretly brought along a jumper, because that will precipitate another meltdown for not believing her in the first place).

In a nutshell, any suggestion that her interpretation of the world might not be correct leads to a meltdown, as does any experience that goes against expectations.

This morning's example: "Mummy, you were wrong about the sun's heat coming from a nuclear fusion, Mrs Teacher said yesterday that it's a ball of fire" "Yes, DD, it is the nuclear fusion that creates the heat and the fire" "No, Mummy. It's fire. That's what it is. It's not nuclear. Nuclear doesn't exist. Nuclear's silly. You're wrong mummy. It's not fair. Why do you get it so wrong?" followed by meltdown and 10 minutes of tears around how horrible I make her feel by telling her things that she now knows are clearly wrong.



Obviously the normal strategies that worked with my DS don't work with her: as for other strategies - Empathy then discussion doesn't work, Part-way giving-in doesn't work, letting her tantrum it out doesn't work (but does at least while away the time), giving her elements of control over certain bits of her life doesn't work. She won't listen, compromise, discuss or engage in any way with exploring her decisions. She herself acts like one of those draconian mums who yell "Do it because I said so!" at their kids, except she's the child, yelling it at me.

When things are going as expected or she is given control, she is a darling; confident, sweet, cheerful, witty, cuddly (and still acting like the grown-up - telling everyone what to do, where to sit, what food to eat, etc). She will even, at the end of such days, cuddle up at bedtime saying things like "See, no tears today! Isn't it lovely when you do all the right things, mummy?"

Obv. her behaviour has not gone unnoticed by others, and I do worry for her ability to make/keep friends. I have asked those that are close to us and know the situation for their advice and they are as stumped as I am. I am strong myself and consistent in boundaries, etc, so I don't think I am making the situation any worse by my own reactions, would love to know if I can do anything to make the situation better, Because sometimes it is really shit (though I did laugh when one of my friends asked me if I'd ever watched the Exorcist, after witnessing a particularly spectacular meltdown). We average maybe three episodes a day (the subject matter is random and can be stuff like who sits on which side of the back seat on the way home from school) - sometimes just stamping and shouting, sometimes worse. No triggers that I have noticed (and I have looked) although tiredness of course makes things so much worse.

She is way, way out there on the bell curve of intelligence so I am very well aware that this is simply the other side of the coin, but am keen to see if anyone else has been there with their own kids? What's been the outcome? Does it die down naturally as they mature? If I have half an idea what to expect then I am sure I will be able to deal with it better.

[rhetorician]

have read with interest (and notebook!); my dd has elements of this, but she is 3.9 and not gifted and talented (as far as I can tell). I probably need to crack down a bit...

[EscapeInTheCity]

Sorry very clearly wouldnot accept a child to be rude.

[ceebeegeebies]

I read this thread earlier in the day and have just popped back to see if the OP had returned. Am I the only one who thinks she did not cancel the horse riding lessons and therefore does not want to come back and admit that?

[HolyBrrrrrrBatman]

OP it sounds to me that her behaviour is beyond the 'normal' range of bad behaviour/being naughty. Has she been assessed for ASD or a behavioural disorder? Do you suspect there may be more to it that being 'difficult'?

I find the refusal to accept the weather worrying tbh. Is it a regular thing or was that a one off situation? Making yourself uncomfortable by refusing to accept the weather is not a sign of intelligence or being gifted. It makes me think maybe it's not that she won't accept the reality of the weather, but that she can't.

If you're confident that you've tried being firm and doing the standard reward/punishment thing then I'd try looking at it like she needs you to help her cope with her environment, rather than she's just difficult/naughty/rude/obnoxious.

If she likes strict routine/rules then give her this at home. Assign her a seat in the car/at the table/on the sofa so there doesn't need to be a fight about it. Look at the weather forecast the night before so she knows what to expect in the morning. Talk about plans for the next day the night before, then again in the morning, then after school, make it so she always knows what is coming next.

I'd also try talking to her when she is calm/happy about how she feels when she loses it, can she feel it coming, does she know why, what can you do to help her calm down etc. Maybe look up different techniques for calming down and see if any catch her imagination. Try and give her the tools to manage her emotions, rather than punishing her for not being able to control them.

[Lavenderhoney]

Op, it won't die down ad she matures. It will get worse. What does your dh and ds do? I hope they are standing up to her, or is it just you? Does your ds behave like this, or is he completely overshadowed by all the attention seeking?

If you have paid for riding in advance she will know its an empty threat as eel down you want her to go. Personally, I use things that only affect the child, such as treats like ice cream. The others get them and really, if she tantrums at that and gets nowhere she will be more likely to behave.

Write a list of the things that are unacceptable ( top 5, like seating issues, being rude, sticking tongue out etc) make a star chart with treats that you are doing anyway for ds and if she doesn't have enough she doesn't get anything. Simple.

Ay rudeness - in her room or a quiet corner. If she screams and comes out back she goes. Stop letting her negotiate with you, it's behavioural here and no amount of 'sorry mummy' work- glad you are sorry but in your room and you will miss the start of the movie etc.

You have to help her- before it's too late. She won't love you more because she is in control. She is laughing at you.

I think your friends and and family are being kind to you and don't want to offend you as you seem to think its part of her brilliance. Does she think it's ok to behave like that? Does she know it's her behaviour and it's not as other girls are jealous?

This post is a bit harsh but it sounds like you have been letting her boss you for years, or is it a new thing?

[StillSquiffy]

I drafted a reply but it looked just like those AIBU posts where everyone disagrees with the OP and then she comes back on all defensive and goes into a rant.

So I thought I?d sleep on it.

Anyway: a few very quick answers.

So. Horse riding cancelled? Of course. Have also cancelled planned days out. And similar. I once had to follow through in cancelling her birthday party which was awful. Punishment doesn?t work. Two ed psychs have told me that and warned me off escalating punishment too much because it was turning competitive (as in a ?who-will-break-first?? cycle).

Marching out of places with her over my shoulder in a fireman's lift, screaming - got the t-shirt. Done it loads of times. Like LeQ I am also mildly surprised that whenever I've done this, no-one has ever stopped me or asked what I'm doing.

Her meltdown at where to sit in the car? Ended up with us driving into a Police Station car park, with her still screaming. From start to finish the tantrum and then the sobbing (when she thought I was going to take her inside the station) lasted 4.5 hours, and I certainly didn't break, once.

The days when I let her make the decisions? That was suggested by an Ed Psych ? there was a theory behind it. Didn't work.

"Let her wear a sundress in -2, she will only do it once". Nope. Wrong assumption. She does it again and again and again. That sundress story is actually a real scenario that plays out all the time in the winter. It's how I know what her reaction will be to all the variables.

Sneaky pride in her? Ouch. Very difficult to put all your thoughts over accurately whilst trying not to be too verbose, but I clearly failed here. Why do I mention her intelligence in the same breath as I mention her behaviours? That's an easy one - its what the Ed Psychs have said to me - they tell me it is intrinsically related. We?ve consulted two Ed.Psychs, by the way, as well as the chap in the New Forest (don?t want to specify as am already putting TMI out in these posts, but some of you will know who I mean). I will however ponder that ?sneaky pride? comment for a few days to explore if there is an element of truth in it.

I am sure I won't succeed in convincing you that we are clear and consistent with strong boundaries, but I am pretty confident that we are, and I have tried all the techniques they have been suggested. Not that I'm perfect. I have lost my temper sometimes. Sometimes you get to the third major meltdown of the day, in public, maybe, and it's impossible not to cry or get furious every now and then that all of the early years where we are supposed to build up loving memories are instead filled with conflict. Which is why I don?t think the pride hat fits, but, anyway.

As I said in OP I was looking for empathy from those who?ve been there, as am fairly sure there are no solutions and I concentrate most on limiting her behaviour and the outcomes. Those who know us well are as stumped as I am on how to deal, given that all those great boundary techniques make no difference at all. Ed Psychs and others give us loads of suggestions but we?ve used up their ideas. Some of them have made things a lot worse, tbh.

We worry very much about her ability to keep friends in future so have tried not to leave a stone unturned. It would be really nice to have posts from others saying they've had similar and it does get better. But that doesn?t mean I haven?t read all the other comments and ideas in detail, even if they weren?t the responses I was hoping to get. Thanks all for posting - feel free to post more, as I will read your views (but will sometimes take time in responding as I want to chew comments over properly)

[numbum]

Well done on coming back OP. Your last post is more explanatory than your first. Read your first one back as an outsider and I'm sure you'll see why you got the replies you did.

I'm about to do the school run so can't reply fully, but didnt want to ignore

[lljkk]

This is radical, as far as you can get from the other posters, but if being strict on her doesn't work, then why keep doing it? It's pointlessly exhausting you both, I think(?)

I find that with DS2 that being sympathetic works best. The more I hold his hand and really listen to his grievances, and talk thru how hard things are from his perspective, take time to hear his side, however irrational, and then very gently present my case for what needs to happen that seems so impossible to him, the better response I get. The more self-controlled, mature & less demanding he becomes. It's weird, goes against all the other advice about parent putting foot down hard, but you know the other advice doesn't work, don't you?

Try reading The Explosive Child for a taste of what I mean.

Sorry if this suggestion does your head in. Still, please try reading the book to see if offers any help. It's not that I'm never stern & strict with DS, but I try not to be now because it's so rarely the most effective approach.

[bamboostalks]

Well just to reassure you, my brother's behaviour as a child was truly appalling, we actually had the police at the house several times such were his tantrums and his will to be bloody RIGHT all the time. He was relentless in his character over a period of many years. Then finally the intelligence part clicked and over a period of time in his teen and through a difficult depressive period, he stopped. He still has many annoying traits but he can in the main control himself. He has loads of friends etc. my poor old mum saw the inside of the Tavistock Clinic and many psychs etc for years and you know nothing really helped. It is a maturity thing. Good luck, you sound like. A truly fab mum and its difficult for others to understand what a child like that is really like.
Of course your pride in her is there, you love her. If there was none of that, then she would be on the road!
Do communicate with the school though, my brother had real problems as he stopped being cute and began to be very difficult there.

[InNeedOfBrandy]

I know this sounds simplistic and there's other things to it but to solve the clothing problem I would clear out her summer clothes at the end of summer so there's no way she can put on a summer dress in November. Also with winter clothes don't buy any short sleeves so if she refuses and you cant make her put on her coat least it's not as bad .

My ds while not g&t is a brat despite me having firm bounderies and a take no shit attitude. But he can not over ride me I am the boss, I cannot imagine how this will all work out but hopefully she will click one day she's cutting off her nose to spite her face.

[mummmsy]

I have a daughter (also extremely academically smart) who had the potential to be like this. The only way I could cope with her behaviour was, to rather undemocratically remove her choices. For instance with the sundress, I would put away all summer clothes, so that she only has winter clothes to tantrum about. I completely recognise that punishment turns into a competition too - who can win first. Fortunately for me, I broke her before she broke me, so perhaps she was less difficult than your daughter. However, I still wanted to offer up my understanding that, yes, I recognise what you're saying.

[Corygal]

OP, it's a nightmare. I really feel for you, because at times a solution isn't remotely evident and one gets the feeling that time is running out.

My cousin was A Biter - sacked from schools, etc. etc., for savaging innocent kids for years.

His psych told the parents to imagine he was putting his hand on a red-hot stove whenever the fangs loomed. Her reasoning was that any secret pride the parents had in his behaviour would be overruled by their concern for his safety.

Psych also said parents were covert admirers of what they saw as an 'urge to win' and failed to acknowledge he was anti-social with bullying tendencies.

It worked. Well, sort of. He's now an investment banker in his 30s who still lives at home, where siblings will not set foot if he's in the house.

[TheCeejOfWinterfell]

I've just realised this is a G&T thread. My DD is bright and a pain, but no more than that

[Corygal]

I think you're doing brilliantly, by the way. You've tried everything you've been given, and clearly you have the patience of a saint. Well done, I completely admire you - most people would have retired hurt by now.

[Busybusybust]

Hi OP, I read this yesterday and it's been on my mind since.

I had a daughter just like this (she's now 31) and I used to despair. Half the tmie I thought she was stronger-willed than me.............the rest of the time I knew she was.

The arguments were truly exhausting. But I was determined that she wasn't gonig to 'win'. The reason? Children, ALL children like boundaries. They like to know that the parent is in charge. If I had let her win I would have had one miserable, nasty little girl.

How did I deal with it? I never, ever let her win. The battles could take hours! With the tantrums, once I realised that she was actually out of control and actually frightening herself, then I started to forcibly cuddle her, rocking her and stroking her (as she initially tried to fight and kick, bite and scratch). Fairly soon the screams and struggling would calm and she would sob and sob. Over time the tantrums became less. Although she was a difficult teenager, I never had any of the 'Bratcamp' type behaviour - which, sorry to say, your daughter is heading for if you don't stop this now.

This interested me though:

those draconian mums who yell "Do it because I said so!" at their kids,

Why do you think that is Draconian? Surely it's totally the way to go!!! I have used it many times, not yelled it (because yelling doesn't work), but delivered in measured tones, using what my children called my 'pointy finger voice'. (Ok, I did yell on occasion - that child would have tried the patience of a saint!)

My daughter is not 'gifted and talented' btw. However I have worked with many teenagers with learning difficulties who show the same behaviour and it's easy to see how it happens 'aw, don't tell her off, she's got Downs'.

Your daughter knows exactly what she is doing - and at the moment you are letting her get away with it, and, sorry, but you do sound rather proud of it! You really need to be stronger than her - and she needs to recognise that you are. Unfortunately, as she is already 6, you have made it more difficult for yourself to get back in charge - but you must. You will have a much happier child. Can you imagine the alternative? A teenager who believes she is entitled to do exactly as she pleases (which with teenagers is potentially dangerous), and who has absolutely no respect for you.

I do hope you manage to tame her - for her sake really - but it isn't gong to be easy....... (If you feel yourself weakening, go and watch some back episodes of Bratcamp!)

[insanityscratching]

From what you write I would research PDA as it sounds like her need to be in control is really extreme. If you are looking for answers to your dd's difficulties I'd suggest that you consider a referral to the Elizabeth Newson Centre to get an assessment of dd's strengths and difficulties.

[FreckledLeopard]

I really feel for you OP - you must be exhausted. Not sure that I can offer much help, but I've had a few thoughts:

The need to control everyone and everything reminds me of a child with Asperger's - very, very intelligent, hugely controlling and massive meltdowns. Is your DD anxious in any way (even if it doesn't manifest itself obviously?) Does she try to control people because she feels insecure?

What happens if, during her tantrums, you don't engage with her? If she argues that black is white, can you just not respond or enter into a debate if you know that it will escalate? Can you walk away?

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

Empathy from this mum.

All three of my boys are v bright and probably in the gifted range. One of them had challenging behaviour which sounds similar to some of the things the OP is describing. It was tough dealing with it. The longest tantrum was 1 1/2 hours. The other two were pretty straightforward in the behaviour stakes so gifted doesn't always bring behaviour problems.

Now that middle one is an adult what I can see is that he is very emotionally literate. He is aware both of his own and other's feelings. Like my father and me is a good cold reader of people and on a good day this makes him a delightful caring person to be with. On a bad day he can start a fight in an empty rooom. I'm slightly worried that he loves the tv show 'The Mentalist' and 'Lie to Me' as he is picking up tips I fear...

It must have been very scarey as a child to be aware of all that emotion but not have the maturity to control it. My job as his mother was to put the boundaries in place until he did get the maturity to cope. So the advice on this thread just what I did. I linited his choices, I told him what the consequences of his actions would be, I warned him once if he ignored me and I followed any threat through. I have walked out of restaurants, playdates, shops and even sat down in the middle of the shopping centre and refused to move until the wobbly passed over. My acting skills in ignoring the tantrums were of OSCAR proportions but then I praised even the tinest element of self control - ok it may have just been drawing breath but I can find the postive in even the most unpromising situations.

If your child is smart then it might be worth making all this clear to her.

'Dearest daughter - if you do not learn to control yourself you will have no friends. As your mother it is my job to teach you to be a nice person to have around. So this is what we are going to do....'

If she loves horses then she has for her own safety to get the emotion under control. Horses are very reflective animals and if she is uptight then the horse will be. Ex groom speaking here.

All this assumes that there is no underlying ASD or neurological difference.

Good luck.

[StillSquiffy]

Thanks so much everyone for posting again. I tend to post on MN to join debates and to advise others (as am obviously v bossy myself), and it has been so 'odd' (in a very nice way) to be on the other side and see people taking time out to actually help me. Including all the posters yesterday.

PDA has been suggested to me, and I have investigated it in detail. There are very few experts in PDA out there (both the ed pyschs I have spoken to have backed off trying to do a formal dx because it's not common enough for them to be confident in this area). I don't think she is typical and there are a lot of the pointers that aren't her at all, so I've put myself in a holding pattern at the moment regarding a dx. This is also partly because sometimes I worry that I am being overly neurotic and middle class in looking for labels and obsessing about finding 'solutions' when really I need to just roll my sleeves up, and get on with it (My DS has a dx, it's helped, so I'm not against formal dx)

Thank you so much to people who have posted about their experiences - it is a huge comfort, this week has been a hard one and I really needed to hear from those who've known similar.

I am going to really think about whether there is a pride thing going on which is in some way reinforcing some of this. I don't think so, but I really will examine my own interactions with my DD over the next few weeks. One Ed Psych recommended family counselling to explore dynamics (recommended in order to look at the sibling relationship, because DS can't cope sometimes with DD's behaviours) and I had dismissed this as more middles class narcissism, but I may think about this more.

I will also remove all the t-shirts.

[rhetorician]

OP - sympathies - I hope you find a solution. Just wanted to say though that you have come back and taken some very stern criticism with great grace. That's not an easy thing to do.

[WitchesTit]

Just sounding something out which works with people who rate as high functioning and high achievers on the autistic spectrum (I am not saying your daughter is) but I know people who are and can exhibit similar traits and behaviours as your highly intelligent little girl.

A strictly adhered to 'timeline' with photos and detailed descriptions of what is expected at every moment of the day, with directions to suitable clothing for the weather. So that everything is right there, to be followed like the bible. No deviating. No 'rewards' for following the timeline or being 'nice' as this is expected behaviour.

Even down to the way the soap might be squirted once then hands rinsed, left then right and which order to put clothes on etc.

It's bloody hard work as most people don't realise how much they rely on flexibility during their day but by taking away the responsibility of the thousands of minor decisions they have to make during the day can help the person feel secure and therefore free to function without an overdose of everything causing meltdown.

I'm not putting it as well as I could here. I have worked with people on the spectrum who are cleverer than quantum physicists but unable to judge whether they need a jumper on or not. People like this can speak and argue very articulately but sometimes their understanding is lower than their eloquence.

[slhilly]

I agree with rhetorician that you've taken stern comments with great grace. I'm also slightly amazed at the number of people who have assumed that (a) you haven't tried the solutions they're suggesting already and (b) your daughter is a "madam" (a really perniciously sexist term, in my view) and that her behaviour can be morally judged, without any thought that what may be going on may have deeper roots.

[LauriesFairyonthetreeeatsCake]

I know pathological demand avoidance disorder is very rare but it really fits in with what you're describing. Even if it's NOT that then you could try the following strategies, they are quite different and definitely worth trying.

strategies to try

I've only known of one child with this syndrome which is why I think it's quite rare so I can't actually contribute anything more helpful - I will try to find out who's the most experienced in this field and come back to the thread though.

Good luck.

[LauriesFairyonthetreeeatsCake]

until I can find something useful I'd start with the tavistock, they will definitely know who is the recognised leader in this field