To vaccinate or not to vaccinate?

[hopey]

Is anyone out there as worried as me about the reports that fewer parents are having their children vaccinated against measles, mumps and rubella?
I can understand the feelings about the mmr triple jab, and single jabs are becoming harder to find, but it concerns me that more and more parents aren't having their kids vaccinated at all, taking the view that "they'll be surrounded by kids that are vaccinated, so they shouldn't catch anything anyway". If more and more people start to take that view, then we'll have an epidemic on our hands.
I'm not keen on the thought of my dd having the triple jab. I don't think I could forgive myself if anything did happen to her, even though they tell us its highly unlikely. It looks as though it will be single jabs for her (if I can get them). I couldn't not have her vaccinated at all especially after seeing a baby on t.v. with measles. She was really poorly in intensive care. It broke my heart to see.
Well, thats my little rant for the day.

[Tigger2]

TB is on the rise on cattle coming out of the south of England, as many of the farms who have restocked in our area are having TB tests done ontheir cows at the moment and some of the cows have reacted. Blame by the so called experts is being put on badgers, something which we don't really see in our area of Scotland.

As regards pastuerised milk, I grew up drinking unpastuerised milk and to my own knowledge was healthier than my cousin who drank the pastuerised stuff or "blue water" as my dad used to call it.

As for more research into the MMR, well the government aren't very good at having an enquiry into items that really do matter to the public. Take the recent F&M enquiry, a paper full of nothing! not one straight answer, I think that parents questions should be adhered to.

[bundle]

Mears, I'm not talking about how 'high powered' it is (we all love to read a bit of 'tat', I'm sure!), just the reputation is has for innacurate, sensationalist reporting which is so frequently deplored on mumsnet. If health care professionals took the same stance on 'advice' handed out by eg govts, royal colleges, researchers as many would have us do on MMR (ie ignore it and use unlicensed drugs) then there would be chaos and pretty swift consequences for people's health. No evidence on any drug/technique is completely exhaustive or conclusive, as you well know. We all have to think of it in terms of risk: like when we drive along the road in a car or take a flight, there's potential for things going wrong. no activity is completely risk-free. Wakefield spent 4 years trying to replicate his own work - and failed...so he didn't PROVE his theory, did he?
You simply can't use different ways of measuring 'proof' whenever you choose - one for govt stats, one for people like Wakefield. I'm not hardline on this, if something had come out of his work I would have been keen to hear more from Wakefield. Your own words could just as easily apply the other way round: ie
"The problem with the evidence presented so far is that it is not conclusive therefore WAKEFIELD cannot possibly state that MMR is NOT safe."

bells2, good question. I'm not sure about the current situation, it's a while since I researched this thoroughly, but there were problems in Japan when they used them - although I understand this was using a different strain to the one which people in this country have been getting. I just found this on a Leicester university microbiology website:

Measles, mumps and rubella - single vaccines

There is no scientific evidence to support the safety or efficacy of giving M/M/R vaccination as three separate vaccines at defined intervals.
Using separate vaccines would lessen the take-up of vaccination, increasing the risk of these diseases returning.
*No other country that recommends three single vaccines rather than MMR triple vaccine.
Having separate vaccines means there are delays between the jabs - leaving children at risk of infection from measles, mumps and rubella.
When the single measles vaccine was in use in the UK, there were regular measles epidemics, killing between 10-20 children each year.

I really didn't mean to heat all this up again, sorry

[mears]

Bundle - I am sorry I do not agree with your attack on the Daily Mail. The Scottish version is different I have to say and here it is the Daily Record that is the sensationalistic trash paper
In fact this week the Mail had an article on the reasons why you SHOULD vaccinate.
I really think you have missed my point. Concerned parents are not going to be reassured enough to increase the uptake of the MMR. It is ridiculous that the choice of single vaccines is being withdrawn. It is far better that parents have the choice of single vaccines and therefore get their children vaccinated than not have them vaccinated at all.
I will ensure that my dd is checked for rubella immunity on becoming a teenager. I have come across many women who have been susceptible to rubella despite being vaccinated previously. I will be bloody mad if I have to have her vaccinated against 3 diseases just to prevent 1.

[bundle]

I disagree mears, about the single vaccines. It's an issue which has helped 'fudge' Wakefield's failure...his guesstimates about 'safe' periods to wait before taking the next vaccine are ludicrous, and show him clutching at straws. I bet a lot of the children whose parents believe they've been affected by vaccines with autism/Crohns also had jabs for HIB and diphtheria, drank formula milk and wore disposible nappies...are we going to get hysterical about those too? I would love the parents to get real answers about what happened to make their children different. If it turns out to be MMR, then I will admit that I followed the medical establishment's line and was wrong.
Concerned parents COULD be reassured if the ill-informed scare stories stopped. maybe it'll take a full-blown measles epidemic to put things into persepctive. I hope not.

[bundle]

re: the papers - is the Record like the Mirror? that's trash...but the Mail in England is a bit more scary, with a veneer of respectability...

[mears]

Bundle - must stop hogging this thread
I have not given my youngest 2 their second MMR.
My first child got the MR at 15 months. He later got the MMR when it was introduced. Second child got the new MMR which only needed to be given once.
Various information I have read, confirmed by my GP, was that the second 'booster' MMR came about in an effort to try and catch the people who had not presented for the first one.
As a good citizen I then had my kids vaccinated
with MR in the campaign around the time of the supposed measles epidemic that never was. The Government used scaremongering tactics to get parents to connsent to the vaccination programme and were subsequently citicised.
The Wakefield research then made me actively look for more information ( my mother-in-law has Crohnes) and I could get a lot more information from JABS (Justice, Awareness and basic Support) than I could get from the Government. There were a number of complications associated with the vaccine never mind Crohn's.
I decided that I was not inflicing a second vaccination on my youngest 2, despite inflicting measles vaccine on my eldest 3 times. He is troubled badly with eczema where the others are not.
I do not have a right to dictate what others do with their children, nor can anyone dictate to me. I truly believe the damage has been done to the reputation of this vaccine. Those parents who have resorted to single vaccines have put the argument that there is not a greater risk of the contracting diseases between vaccinations as the children are vaccinated within a close timescale to the MMR. I don't know anything about it because I do not need to have this vaccine for my children now.
As we have seen there are parents who will not be convinced of the safety of MMR - me included. I still maintain if parents are happier to have single vaccines they should get them!

[aloha]

Bundle - I do think the reference to 'unlicensed drugs' is a bit sensationalist. They are unlicensed perhaps, but we know that they aren't dangerous. The reason the drug firms aren't producing the licensed vaccinations is because the government won't allow single vaccines. It is down to the government. Why are we allowed choice in every area except this one? I am touched by your faith in the government, but you surely must accept that there are very good reasons for not trusting politicians on health issues.

[leese]

Hear, hear Mears - and bloody good luck with your Masters - you're a braver woman than I ......

[pupuce]

Mears is just older

[mears]

Thanks pupuce

How about a guess the age of mears competition?

[mears]

Thankyou also Leese - ever wonder why you started something

[leese]

Absolutely.....Got a friend doing her Masters at the moment, and has a perpetually fraught look on her face.
P.S. If we get the answer right Mears, what do we win?!!.......

[Tigger2]

Must admit I agree with Bundle on this one, will it take an epidemic to make some parents realise that many professionals DO KNOW what they are talking about. But, on the other hand some forms of vaccination do not work, as in some forms of pnuemonia in sheep and cattle, although a vaccination has not been developed for cattle yet the vaccine for sheep Heptavac P works in the majority of our sheep not 100% though. The vaccination that was to be introduced for F&M was not as strong as the strain we had in this country.

A bit of this thread if anyone is interested, if the present government has its own way we will be eating mainly imported meat and vegetables within the next 2 years what are your thoughts on this? Bearing in mind that welfare standards are NOTHING compared to this country, some may think that they are crap in this country, would you like to eat Lamb/Beef/Pork/Milk that has been injected with a F&M vaccine.

[gillymac]

Tigger2,

am definitely interested in your thread about imported veg/meat. I feel v. strongly about buying British meat/lamb/chicken etc, partly because of the welfare implications and also to support British farmers. I get really annoyed when my local supermarket runs special offers on Danish/Dutch bacon for these very reasons.
Also, I read that one reason for the recent F & M outbreak was government complacency/cutbacks on checking for illegally imported meat. Fair enough I know that customs need to check for drugs being smuggled in but when you think how much F & M cost the country, it makes sense to spend a bit more money on checking for illegally imported food.

[mckenzie]

Bells2, apparently in Poland they give the single vaccine even though the triple is available (heard that direct from a Polish friend who had asked her Aunt who is a nurse/doctor (cant remember which) working in Poland).

I've just logged on this week after a while away having been on holiday and moved house. The first thing I thought to do was send in a subsciption to Mumsnet and I couldn't decide how much to send. I have now just read this whole debate from start to finish (our DS is 14 months old) and I think I might just add a zero to my cheque. So many different angles have been covered and information given that I would never have come across any other way and I am very grateful to all contributors. Thank you.

[susanmt]

When i said the research was awful I meant his methodology - his sample of children was VERY small - 12 I think, which is not big enough to prove anything one way or the other.
What I think is really sad about all this is that autism IS on the increase but people are so obsessed with it being the MMR that causes it that no other research is going on to look for other reasons which might give someinsight, and better prevention/therapy for the children affected.

[Tigger2]

The first sniffer dogs for checking baggage for imported meat were introduced last week. NOt before time. The strategy that the present Government is trying to introduce will mean that the public will be eating Beef/lamb/pork that has been vaccinated for F&M, milk as well, and the by-products of dairy as well will all have been vaccinated for F&M. This was tried by the Dutch Government and that Dutch people went into an uproar and the Dairy Cattle that has been vaccinated had to be destroyed, good healthy cattle shot because nobody thought about the consequences.

Farmers are trying their dammned best to produce food for this country, but, we are not getting the support of the main buyers, like the supermarkets etc. We produce it, they pay us a pittance for it and then you the public get shafted for it. Our welfare standards on both of our farms are in my own opinion excellent, and our standards of medical welfare as well, but, there are, through no choice fo their own some farmers who cannot look after their stock, and get into the trap of not being able to pay the vet and then cannot face the embarassment of asking the vet out. They then sell their stock and don't get a good price for it because it is not in a good condition to sell. Now this is the normal for many of the countries that will start to export to our country, ever seen what goes on in one of the foreign slaughterhouses, not nice, nor within the european regulations either. No stun nothing, it may seem a bit harsh, but many people cannot understand why we farming folk are so up in arms and to be perfectly honest pissed off, at the lack of support we are getting in terms of our own government not even promoting our food. And the conditions that many of the animals abroad are kept in, do you want to eat meat that you don't know what age it is, we in Britain had the 30 month rule, as in no beef over 30 months old goes into the food chain, and all cows and her progeny had Cattle Control Documents or Passports as we call them. Many farmers can tell you what cow has what calf in the field and what she had last year, I can! We are members of the Quality Meat Scotland, and as of next July only meat that has been BORN in Scotland will be classed as Scottish Farm Assured, the same goes for England, Ireland and Wales, which I think is the right thing, at present we can buy anywhere in the UK and bring it home and after 90 days it is classed as Farm Assured for beef and 60 days for sheep. To import meat from al over the place will see another epidemic of F&M or worse, and I for one don't want to see pictures of burning cows on the telly, although it was very hard for many at the time, it did stop the spread eventually.

[SueDonim]

Tigger, why is the govt wanting to import meat? I'm not in the UK now and am out of touch, so haven't seen the news. I'd have thought we produced enough of our own, surely?

I've read that a restaurant in Glasgow is importing donkey meat. The poor donkeys are exported in horrible circumstances from Eastern Europe to Italy, where they are then slaughtered, if they haven't died on teh journey. Why is something as simple as providing humane welfare so dificult to do? I assume it's a lack of politcal will.

[WideWebWitch]

Tigger2, sympathise about the supermarkets and find the rest of your post frightening.

The Office of fair trading published a report a few years ago called something like "consumer consequences of the exercise of retail spending power" or some other such dry title, but the report (which I read) talked about the major retailers' increase in UK market share and what this meant for consumers. The conclusion was not good: i.e small businesses unable to compete with low superstore prices leaving the major food retailers as the only buyers in town. These retailers are then free to exercise their purchasing power to screw suppliers (and I know they do this, used to work in FMCG) with the consequences you mention.

But I didn't know about imported meat until you mentioned it. I don't eat much meat (or dairy) but ds is veggie and I dislike the idea of him eating dairy products from F&M vaccinated cows. (I'm not saying this isn't important just because I don't eat it BTW).

IMO though the major retailers will only change if their consumers demand it. i.e it was harder to get organic food in the supermarkets a couple of years ago until retailers realised that (some) consumers wanted it and would (here's the point) PAY more for it. And then they started stocking it and, presumably, screwing their organic food suppliers all over the world as well as their suppliers here in the UK. Didn't Sainsburys buy an organic island somewhere to grow produce?

The same was/is true of GM foods, I wrote to all the retailers telling them I wouldn't shop there unless they were upfront about GM ingredients and they do seem to be labelling in more detail. I'm not suggesting this is a result of my letters just that I can't have been the only one who felt this way and, presumably, they responded to consumer demand in part.

AA Gill reckoned that it is all down to consumer demand for cheap food but I don't agree: if the public were truly aware of the consequences of their cheaper food they might change their demands.

Tigger, is this definitely happening and if so any suggestions about what can be done about it?

[Tigger2]

WWW, the proposals have yet to go through the proper channels, but, in matters like this the farming community have no actual "say" in what the consequences will be. The thing that really really gets me is the price of lamb on the supermarkets shelves, it is being sold live in the market for £1.06 per kilo and in the shops it is nearly £11.99 per kilo! It is mainly the Hill Farmers, we have just taken over another farm last November and now have over 1000 breeding ewes, and to try and make a bit more money we have just had the ewes tested for Enzootic Abortion, so that we can sell our old ewes as Abortion Free (Accredited) It is going to cost us £427 plus VAT to obtain this status. The Goverment want ot be seen as having "Fair Trade", well in my opinion they should look to their own doorstep before going further afield, we have been farming on our own for nearly 8 years now and now we are beginning to make headway. Many young people coming into farming are being crippled by the strength of the powers that be. We don't employ anyone at all, not unless we are at silage, like now and we bring in contractors, years ago with the amount of land we have over 1000 hectares there would have been a shepherd eomployed, whereas we do everything ourselves and at lamb marking time and clipping/dipping we neighbour with another couple of farmers.

It's not just the meat being imported, the milk price has dropped beyond all comprehension, it is now down at around 13 -14p per litre! and the weather has been terrible this year so many dairy farmers are having to feed the cows more cake to get the milk yield up on newly calved cows, thus more money and no return at all on this. Vegetables as well, I have just bought a large bag of tatties locally and it cost me £4.50 for a 20 kilo bag, and in winter time I can by a 15 kilo bag of carrots for £6.00. Many people say we don't promote our produce enough, fair enough, but in many instances the regulations to sell fresh produce is to expensive for some people to even start thinking about it, although farmers markets seem to be getting quite popular now.

We need to make the public more aware of what they are actually eating, as I think they would be reather pissed off if there was nothing but imported meat/milk/cheese etc on the shelves that had been pumped full of goodness knows what all.

I hope I am not rambling on but this is something that I feel very strongly about, and have been known to tell the Manager of our local Safeways what I think of the price of their produce. In fact they should be able to tell you where all their Beef & Lamb has come from as we now have to tag the cattle and sheep with a tag that has the Holding of Birth on it when it is sold, cattle have been for a while, but sheep since the F&M last year are now tagged before they go to market and to slaughter.

Even the Organic Farmers are being hammered, they don't have a niche market for their produce if they are off the beaten track like our area, so the buyers give them less because the transport costs are more to come and get the product, did you know that many Organic Dairy Farmers, their milk goes into the same Milk Tanker that collects non-organic milk!!

Ok end of Tigger for now, my message to you all, before this green and pleansant land goes to waste, BUY BRITISH FARM ASSURED MEAT/VEG! You know what you are getting GOOD WHOLESOME FOOD!

[robinw]

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