How much do you drink and how many trips to the loo do you need a day?

[JustFabulous]

I don't think I drink a huge amount but I do feel I am forever in the loo. Plus I wake 5-6 for the loo every morning. Sometimes I feel like I am desperate for a wee but then have a small one other times I feel like I have lost the ability to know if I need the loo or not .

I had surgery in November but don't think it is anything to do with that.

[IndigoBarbie]

Interstitial cystitis?

[gussiegrips]

just do the bladder diary, and note down how often you have the panic feeling, as well as how much you drink, how often you leak, what you drink etc.

And, then figure out what the panic is - is it having an accident? Well, figure out what the worst thing about that is. You are in a bathroom, no one will see. Your jeans get wet, you can wash them and get changed. Not at home? Take a big bag with a change of troos out with you until you get this under control. Once you figure out what's causing the anxiety, you can manage it.

Remember, a third of your friends have similar problems.

If it's any consolation, my worst experience was stupidly entering the sack race 3 weeks after dropping the smallest gripper. Got halfway...pissed myself. Not just a wee bit either. Pushing a pram, whilst dragging two kids who want to stay at sports day,whilst waddling in a sack is not elegant. Everyone was very nice and helpful, but, still. Ugh.

Oh, maybe we should have a "the worst continence experience I've had" competition?

[JustFabulous]

I've been busy refereeeing badly behaved kids so haven't had a proper chance to read again yet but I just went to get changed and I had had tummy ache for a bit like I needed a wee and there is always a panic that I won't get my jeans off in time . I feel like all the messages are getting mixed up.

[gussiegrips]

She runs a super forum on facebook for pelvic organ prolapse sufferers, but she's been involved with lots of research about continence - and, has close links with a urology dept in a teaching hospital.

I might make her a cape, actually if I stitched 100 tena lights together it might be pleasantly swoopey

[Ilovefluffysheep]

Thanks, will take a look. A superhero for peeing people - I like it!

[gussiegrips]

incostress.com/meet-the-team/

try again

[gussiegrips]

Furry, the people I work with are mostly way down the urology ladder than folk needing clams or other augmentations.

I have seen one, but it was years ago, and in a person who had a neurological problem. I assume that the surgery was a last resort to increase the bladder capacity to avoid a suprapubic catheter.

However, I do know someone who will know about it [http://incostress.com/meet-the-team/ Gaynor Morgan, she's like a superhero for peeing people]]. Hang on, I'll email her and PM you.

[Ilovefluffysheep]

I had to explain to my GP what a sacral nerve stimulator was after my surgery (had gone in for a sick note). Previously I also had to explain how the botox worked (or didn't in my case!).

gussie, have you ever come across anyone who has had a clam cystoplasty? Its my remaining option and a huge decision, as major surgery. Would love to speak to someone who has had it, or has firsthand knowlege of someone else having it!

[gussiegrips]

Confession time - I'm mostly stuck on a settee with a poorly SmallGrip.

Politics of pee:

GPs have a very hard job and, I've only ever found them to be helpful. I luffs GPs and don't want to sound like I'm dissing them. But, (ah, you knew that was coming) their system operates around QOF - where they are paid extra for preventing hospital admissions for the big diseases like heart disease, diabetes etc.

And, rightly so, these are, after all, the things that kill people.

Continence management and prevention are not on the QOF guidelines. So, GPs aren't paid extra for those patients, and, importantly, there isn't as much money available for training GPs in these conditions.

So, it's not unreasonable to wonder how much your GP actually knows about continence and bladders. Things change in medicine so quickly, their training might not be that up to date. Also, most of the information they get is via drug reps...who,naturally, promote medication rather than prevention.

And, the story GPs and surgeons hear is "I've tried the exercises, they didn't work" The woman may well have tried the exercises, but, unless they are taught properly and the woman focusses on making them a priority, they don't work. Same with a bladder diary - it can work really brilliantly, but, you've got to actually do it. And, that's dull and hard to fit into your already busy day.

And, I feel very strongly that continence and bladder disorders and pelvic organ prolapse deserve more attention than current policies award them.

After all - how many elderly women need to get out of bed at night to go to the loo? And, how many of them fall because it's dark and they may have mobility problems? And, how many of those suffer a serious injury and lie for a number of hours before being found, causing chest infections, pressure sores and hypothermia?

Continence is a multi-faceted problem that can cause marked interference in women's lives, mental health issues, and secondary injuries, illnesses and serious secondary injuries.

And, don't even get me started on the menfolks, they have crummy pelvic floors too - and premature ejaculation/erectile dysfunction/pelvid pain does funny things to their psyche too.

Now, could anyone pass me a ladder? My soap box is too high to dismount from unaided...

[gussiegrips]

I know, Fluffy!

The weird thing about mula banda is that when you are teaching someone to do it...

"now, imagine you have lift in your vagina. Lift it to the first floor, up to the second, then, the third. Now, concentrate, down to the second, down to the first, and relax"

...they all squint their faces and do it.

Not once have I met someone who has said in outrage "I beg your pardon? Imagine I've got a WHAT in my WHERE?"

ha ha ha

Ever read the Borrowers? That's who's in mine. A teeny tiny wee Pod. I always fancied a bloke who was nifty with a safety pin.

[Ilovefluffysheep]

Lifting up a lift 3 floors in your vag????

Good job I don't suffer incontinence as that just made me laugh out loud and really cheered me up for some reason! Think its the mental image I've got, is very amusing!

The one thing I would say is perservere, and do your research. I first got referred to the consultant when I was 18 ish, and have been going on and off to lots of different ones ever since (with quite a few breaks in between). I'm not 37!

The last consultant I had in my own area said there was nothing more he could do, and that I couldn't have botox and sacral nerve stimulation as they weren't funded. After all these years I told him that I wanted a second opinion, as I couldn't believe in this day and age there was nothing more could be done. He agreed, but told me even if I went elsewhere I wouldn't get these things.

I researched urologists, and found one in London I wanted to go to who did both private and NHS. I don't think a lot of people realise this, but under the choose and book scheme you can be referred ANYWHERE in the country as long as your GP agrees, which luckily for me mine did.

I went with no expectations because of what my consultant had told me. Turns out he was wrong, and I got put straight on the waiting list for botox, and when that didn't work had the sacral nerve op done.

So, know your rights, don't take no for any answer, and be prepared to ask for second opinion - Dr's don't know everything!

[Screaminabdabs]

Thanks, Gussie. Very interesting. I've done a load of pelvic floor exercises today.

[JustFabulous]

Goodness, that is a lot of info. I am going to have to read this thread a few times to get it I think. Thank you.

[gussiegrips]

Hi Screami

Yep, pilates and yoga can be great - especially "mula banda" which is imagining lifting a lift in your vag up three floors and back down. It's tricky, and a stretch of the imagination (who is in the tiny lift? Where are they going?)

You've got to be careful though, some moves and poses can overload your pelvic floor, there's evidece that suggests that pilates etc can worsen prolapses etc if done incorrectly - ie. ifyou try to do holds which your core is not strong enough to sustain you'll increase your intra-abdominal pressure, whcih can cause your fanny to fall out.

So, yes, but tell your instructor that you have symptoms.

IBS is a tricky one. It is not easy to open your bowels and not go for a wee - there's a whole lot of conditioning gone into gettign you potty trained so, once your're there you'll pee.

Keeping a good diet and complying with your medication so your IBS symptoms are as well controlled as possible is the way to manage it.

And, yes, exercise really helps the bowels - keep drinking though, don't get dehydrated and constipated!

It's really a matter of getting Good Habits - drink lots, eat well, #doyerblardyexercises, seek medical help and comply with what they tell you.

Easier said than done, I know! It's worth prioritising though, see upthread for a hint of the misery that bladders and bowels can wreak.

scuze typos. There seems to be jam on my laptop. Sigh.

[Screaminabdabs]

Gussie, as well as specific pelvic floor exercises, do things like Pilates and yoga etc help? (I imagine they must...)

Also, if you've got IBS you go to the loo really often - and while you're there you do a wee as well. This can make it hard to limit bladder emptying. Sometimes it feels to me like that whole area is mush, and irritable mush at that. However when I do get to the gym, exercise does definitely seem to help.

[gussiegrips]

You know that a third of women with bladder issues have clinical depression? And, that's the ones who admit to it.

No wonder. Continence and bladder problems affect everything, and yep, it's not an illness which causes pain or limits your mobility - but, nor is there much sympathy for this condition because it is taboo.

If you have a disease friends and family ask how you are - they don't tend to feel comfortable asking "how's the shitting yourself going today?" or "did you wet the bed last night?"

Assuming you felt able to share what you are going through with them in the first place, that is.

1:3 women have bladder issues. I repeat this because it's so common, and yet, we don't TALK ABOUT IT.

Sigh.

[Ilovefluffysheep]

gussiegrips you're right, it is a disability. I'm on restricted duties at work because of it. Every decision in life I make is based around where the nearest toilet is!

I consider myself "lucky" because I don't have an issue with continence, and also I generally don't wake up at night with it, which is weird given how much I go in the day. Having either of those 2 things on top of the frequency must be awful - I really don't know how I would cope.

I know its not a major illness like cancer, or a physical disability like being an amputee or being parlaysed. However, for those of us that suffer it, it can be totally life limiting.

[gussiegrips]

I'm sorry that so many of you have experienced this.

Most cases will respond to bladder training and pelvic floor exercises. The few that don't will need investigating as there are as many causes as there are MNrs.

I'm encouraged to see that you have pushed for further investigations and treatment, folks. Most women just put up with it, I've met women who are, by any definition, disabled because of their bladder problems. I don't say that lightly - if you can't go longer than 20 mins without having a pee then holding down a job, a relationship or participating in your life is Not Easy.

I take it you are all doing your pelvic floor exercises? Have a look on my profile, there's a link to my website which has information and lists the exercises. I tweet to remind you to #doyerblardyexercises, stick an @ in front of my name.

What I'd really like is for MN to adopt continence as a campaign. A third of MNrs are reading stuff on here and pissing themselves as they laugh. 70% of cases can be improved by doing exercises and changing habits.

GPs would bite your hand off for a drug with that sort of success rate.

But, complicated cases can be, well, complicated. Hope you all get sorted soon, have a shiny for seeking help.

[Ilovefluffysheep]

I have this. Go 10-15 times a day. I am diagnosed with overactive bladder syndrome. It's a nightmare.

Have had medication, changes to diet, cytoscopy x 3, medication inserted via catheter, Botox, and a sacral nerve stimulator whic is coming out next week as it hasn't worked.

My only remaining option is major surgery, which is a massive decision.

It's not been easy to get these treatments, I've had to get my gp to refer me to a urologist in another area as my pct don't fund Botox or sns.

Get to a dr and asked to be referred to a urologist. You need proper examination to find out the cause. Mine was diagnosed after urodynamic tests.

[mamij]

I used to go too often too and each time wasn't a "full" wee. Not great when out or at work!

With both pregnancies I had urine retention and saw urologist. I mentioned that I go to the toilet very often - usually half an hour after drinking something, which they say isn't normal. You're supposed to go about 2-3 hours after drinking and pass roughly 500ml each time.

Basically what gussie says about bladder telling brain when to go etc.

Urologists recommended "bladder training", which means every time I need to go, I should wait 5 mins. After a few days, I should wait 10 mins, then 15 mins etc, to help reset the bladder to hold more urine.

[gussiegrips]

Oh, and, if bladder retrainign doesn't work, there's loads of really good drug treatments.

And, you can get botox in your fanjo to help too.

There's a mental image to enjoy - a wrinkle free fanny.

[gussiegrips]

As relaxing said - 8x a day, 1x at night is normal. More than that is not.

Your bladder's got a muscular wall. As it fills with pee, the muscle stretches. That stretch tells your bladder it's full, your bladder tells your brain, so get the feeling of "I've got to go" You should get enough warning that your bladder is full to allow about half an hour before you get "I've really got to go, right NOW"

Usually what happens is, we have an accident/fear having an accident - so, we go "just incase"

That means the muscle inside the bladder wall is not stretched to capacity. So, the system adapts to sending you the message "gotta go" before your bladder is, in fact, full. So, you go more often, and pass less volume. And, you waken up at night. And, you learn that you need to go a lot, so you go more, just incase.

Bladder irritability has been known to make people housebound...

this is a bladder diary fill it out for three days.

You'll see what the pattern is. Take it to your GP, (with a urine sample, to rule out a UTI) get a referral to a women's health physio and they'll sort you out.

It's a muscle same as any other, responds really well to a bit of a stretch.

I'm a women's health physio, a little obsessive with pelvic floor exercises and women being limited by their bladders.

1:3 of us wet ourselves. over 55s it's half. Bloody ridiculous that there's not more information and help about it. I'm on a mission to change that, one fanny at a time

Go and see your GP, you really don't need to put up with it.

[JustFabulous]

Yes, I realise I was wrong about the diabetes thing. Easily me. It is fairly recent, as in the last few months rather than years. I am trying to drink more as it is better for me and helps with the weight loss. I try not to get to the desperately thirsty stage.

[EllieArroway]

Is this a new thing for you, JustFab?

I have always, always been a very frequent wee-er (dunno how to spell that!). I don't usually have to get up in the night, but I probably go maybe 10-12 times a day, and often it is just a dribble. An evening in the pub where I'm drinking continuously sees me needing to go every 15mins. Very tedious!

This is a lot, but it's normal for me. If you've always been the same, then don't worry. But if it's a change then I would see the GP.

Oh - and I think with diabetes the frequent urination is the effect of feeling very, very thirsty so drinking a lot. If you're not feeling thirsty all the time, then I wouldn't have thought it would be because of that (but I'm not an expert).

[digerd]

I was prescribed tablets - Oxybutinin- as the messages to and from the brain/bladder had got confused. You should get the message when the bladder is full and only then. It worked for me, but had the side effect of a dry mouth and not sweating normally.