Workload - further maths

[autumn666]

My DS has just started year 12 and is taking 4 a'levels, with the 4th being further maths. He is coping fine with his main 3 subjects but is struggling with some parts of further maths, which is also making up the bulk of his homework, and affecting the time he can dedicate to his other subjects.

I have spoken to him about dropping it if it starts to impact his other grades, as he doesn't need further maths for what he wants to do but he wants to carry on with it. He is a really capable student, with all 9's at GCSE in his A level subjects but the jump seems huge.

Is this likely to be part of dealing with the transition to A level and will get easier or a sign that he needs to consider dropping it. How long should he give it a try for?

I would give it a little more time as Yr12 is an adjustment- but it is likely to get way more difficult. If he doesn't need FM or a 4th Alevel then I would encourage him to drop it as even Oxbridge only require 3 Alevels.

What are his other A levels and want is he likely to want to study at Uni?

I have DC who have taken FM. They were towards the lower end of the FM class initially when measured by preceding Maths GCSE grade, compounded by the fact some of the class had done Additional Maths GCSE (they had not). It was a big step up.

They overcame this by reading ahead in the syllabus book, watching videos etc so that when the concepts were being explained in class (often at speed), they were not left trailing from the outset. It got better and, in time, they overtook their less disciplined classmates.

They also said that the FM supported not only their Maths but also their logical thinking and general approach in other subjects. Don't give up just yet and perhaps encourage your DC to speak to their FM teacher. They won't be the first to find FM a challenge at the beginning of Y12.

@Livinghappy thanks for your reply, he is also doing maths, biology and chemistry and wants to study medicine.

@PerpetualOptimist thanks for your reply. He did further maths at gcse and also got a 9 in that so I think part of the issue may be that he just isn't used to finding something difficult and is letting it get to him.

He has been trying to read ahead but has limited time by the time he has done the homework so is stressing about not having done as much of that as he wanted. I have told him to speak to his teacher and give it a bit more time so will see how it goes for the next few weeks.

If he needed it I would say stick with it - do lots of past papers and it will become easier.

However if he really wants to do medicine then he should use his time to concentrate on the other subjects and gain relevant experience ready for the UCAS process next year.

A lot does depend on what he wants to do though - if he wants to persevere then let him.

@autumn666 Do they have a good teacher for FM?

It is probably too early to give up now as assume you haven't had feedback from the school yet

However if he is serious about medicine then he will need to focus on entry exams and that will also take up time so 6th form is about achieving the balance to meet longer term goals. If he is in a high performing cohort and used to doing well he made help to get the right balance.

If he wants to study medicine he should drop it and focus on working for the medical entrance exams - the UKCAT and the BMAT.

They are HARD and it is his results from those that will have most impact.

Given he wants medicine, I would ditch the FM now, and focus on the other subjects, along with the med assessments and experience/volunteering in relevant areas.

Thanks for all your replies. It is the balance I'm worried about, and him starting to drop things in other areas that he does need, like volunteering, or giving up any form of social life for an a-level he doesn't even need, just wants to do.

I'll keep an eye on it and see how the rest of this half term goes.

DS is doing FM and will probably drop a different A level as soon as he is allowed. Has to carry on at least till half-term.

It’s been a really big step up - fm at GCSE was a lesson a week after school with no homework. This weekend he’s mostly been doing maths.

At the sixth form open evening they said hardly anyone ends up doing 4 A- levels, even though most start four. Might as well decide sooner rather than later (unless your DS is enjoying it - mine doesn’t like the one he wants to drop much).

Op, how does your school do Maths & FM? Some do A level maths in Yr12 and FM in Yr13 so both courses are at double speed. GCSE maths is glacier speed in comparison so it is a significant jump.

Maybe have a look at the medicine thread here https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/4773726-medicine-2025-entry?page=1 . I would strongly recommend just doing three A levels. He will need to practice for ucat, practice for interviews, attend interviews (hopefully), ideally get relevant paid or voluntary experience to discuss in the interviews and then make sure that he gets at least 3A at A level. Dropping the ball on just one of these could mean delaying studies by another year. The sooner he drops it, the more time he frees up. An EPQ might lead to a lower grade requirement at some universities but only if he really fancies doing it, otherwise it is just a distraction.

@Changes17 he is really enjoying it so doesn't want to drop it but dropping any of the others isn't an option as they are required for what he wants to do.

@Livinghappy they do both over the two years

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor that is my concern, fitting in the other stuff which is essential. Although he has already done a decent amount of volunteering over the summer and is a volunteer for St John Ambulance so has a bit of a start on that. I think he's starting to see the balance he needs and the priorities so hopefully he will be open to dropping it if he needs to.

Seems strange to do both consecutively, no wonder he's finding it hard.

At my DS's school (and the other local school that does FM), they do A level Maths in year 12 and then FM in year 13, so only ever doing 3 A levels at any one time. They just do them at a faster pace. The "one year" A level maths course is only for those who'll be doing FM in year 13 and only for those who achieved a good grade in FM at GCSE level, hence why they can do the normal A level in just a year - it's a self-selecting group of highly able Maths students who've probably already covered some of the A level syllabus as part of the GCSE FM exam.

I wonder if the FM teacher is new to it, or trying too hard, maybe even piling them on with work to see who sinks and who swims as a kind of "weeding out"?

At DS' school they have switched away from doing maths in year 12 and FM in year 13 since they have apparently found it works better for them to do them both at the same time - they feed into each other, maybe?

@autumn666 If he's enjoying it, then that's great. But yes, it's definitely a very big step up and FM homework does take over your life when you are doing 4 a-levels.

Seems strange to do both consecutively, no wonder he's finding it hard.

I think you meant concurrently? My dd did both maths and fm at the same time, it was fine but that was the old format so it allowed for them to stop their 4th subject after AS.

I think PP are right that for medicine it may be better to ditch the FM as he will have other things he needs to do.

But on one point, I think part of the issue may be that he just isn't used to finding something difficult and is letting it get to him - in general it's probably a good thing if kids do encounter something difficult at school and figure out how to deal with it. The 'jump' between GCSEs and A levels (even FM) is likely less that that between A levels and the more rigorous degree courses.

It is usual for a college to just do the whole content of A level maths in year 12 and then those that are excelling move onto FM in year 13. If not they just join the normal maths A level group for either part of year 12 if it is obvious they are not coping or in year 13. Ds says getting the foundation down first is better and then expanding on that with FM.

He needs to seek help from his teachers as to why he is needing to spend so much time on the FM part. I think this may have been a shock to him to struggle with something but he needs to reach out and get help. Every day at college there is a time slot when all teachers are available for this sort of intervention and guidance.

He doesn't need 4 A levels for medicine just ace out 3. He would be better spending his time studying for the entrance exams, Ds's mate has just sat UCAT and will be sitting BMAT in November.

Thanks everyone for your replies. He has spoken to his teacher this week, calmed himself down and is back on top of all his work and has a plan as to when to fit in work experience. His teacher agreed that it is likely panic as he hasn't struggled in the past and teacher is happy with how he is doing, as are the other teachers.

I'm going to leave him be and just keep an eye on it, but I think he has got his head round what needs to be his priority if he starts to struggle again.

Good. It may be that he's learning something more valuable than the FM here!

@autumn666 excellent news. His teachers being happy is good. Reaching out when you are unsure is one of the best ways to ensure success. It is actually listed in Ds's sixth form under what makes a successful student? Basically the teachers are here for you, ask us anything you need.

@autumn666

Can I ask how your DS Is doing now?

My DD is in the same boat but a year younger and is trying to decide whether to do Further Maths as a full A-level or just as an AS Level.

Her subject choices for A-Level are Maths, Chemistry and Biology.

Like your DS, she is very able at maths, predicted a 9 and finds it comes naturally. She is doing the further maths GCSE.

She is trying to decide between medicine or maths as a degree and all weekend we’ve been trying to decide what she should do as this has an impact on her A-level choices.

Her school only allow Futher Maths as a fourth A-level. You’re not allowed to choose it as say maths, further maths and chemistry. I’m not sure why.

We’re getting quite a lot of pressure to do just AS Level because they say DD will find it hard to cope with four and only get 2 free periods a week.

This summer she is doing actuarial work experience as she wasn’t sure what to do but she still wants to try work experience in a hospital and see what that’s like too. She really doesn’t know what is the right thing for her.

Im worried medicine will be too much pressure for her but on the other hand she may really enjoy it.

The school are saying that is she drops Further Maths she may not be able to join the AS Further Maths class as it’s on a completely different timetable to full Further Maths.

I am so unsure what to do.

Add to that her Dad is a very very highly qualified mathematician who wants her to study maths to the highest degree and also that she’s expressed an interest in psychology as well as everything else we are all over the place.

Can anyone help our thinking here?

Do hope your DS is thriving OP and coping well with the workload.

@Vive42 he is doing really well now. We had parents evening where we talked about the concerns with all teachers and they said to decide at the end of the year and that he is on track for what he needs in all subjects so not to be too hasty.

It is difficult as you don't really need further maths for medicine but you do need work experience and volunteering which also takes up a lot of time. My DS spends two evenings a week and a chunk of the holidays volunteering, so it is something they really need to be committed to.

Do all universities expect further maths for a maths degree? If so it might be worth starting it whilst she decides then dropping completely if she wants to go for medicine or psychology and using the time to build a strong application for that.

My DS does find it hard at points but is managing it, along with a part time job too so it can be done but it's a lot and life could be a lot easier for him but ultimately it's his decision.

Hope that is helpful. He has been single minded about it for years so hasn't had to navigate that. Hope your DD is able to find the right path for her.

@Vive42

DS is at Uni studying maths in his last year. He did Maths/Further Maths/Physics/Computer Science at A Level (got 4 A star). Been accepted for an MA at Cambridge.

I think non mathematicians see the subject in a very one dimensional way. However the topics covered in M/FM are different with the latter being a larger leap from GCSE.

In terms of Uni, if you want to study maths then FM is definitely an advantage but it's not a requirement for all (including top 10 rated) universities simply as there are many schools that don't offer FM (so being mandatory would be discriminatory).

That said if you want to do a maths degree, FM is a good segway into that and I think not having it risks the step from school to uni level maths being much, much more difficult.

My DS's experience is his friends who didn't do FM found their first ini year really tough and whilst some have caught up, others haven't and have struggled on (and will prob get a 2:2 at best - one has already had to re-sit their second year) and others have switched degree subjects completely.

Based on our experience I'd suggest if your child might want to do maths at uni they definitely do FM at A level if they have the opportunity.

If they find it tough at A Level it's a good indicator NOT to pursue that subject at degree level and if it's a fourth subject they can stop it and push their efforts in a different direction before getting to Uni and realising it not for them.

If medicine is an option then the volunteering commitment will be significant, but my DS didn't find doing 4 overly stressful (but he loves maths - it's fun for him).

I think Maths particularly is very much a subject where you just have to have a natural talent for it and where hard work won't help you overcome having a brain that's simply "maths wired".

Unfortunately I think it's only FM A Level that separates out "maths wired" individuals from those who are regardless very clever and hard working and thus get great maths grades until they hit that FM barrier or worse at Uni.

It's a tough call in your situation but if maths is on the table I'd definitely recommend she does FM A Level.