Worried about DD lack of fruit & veg....

[auntyspan]

My DD is nearly 18 months old and will not eat any fresh fruit or veg. Her stools (sorry if tmi) are becoming quite pale and I'm desparately worried.
Veg - I'm mashing it up with cod / chicken etc and she eats about 3 spoonfuls and REFUSES to the point of screaming to eat anymore. I've tried steaming it a bit and giving it to her as finger food, cooking it as normal and giving her fish fingers etc. She just doesn't eat it. Fruit is even worse. I did the smoothie thing which worked for about 3 days and then she found a lump that hadn't been whizzed up, and screamed the place down. She now refuses to even take one mouthful.
I'm really at the end of my tether. Do I go down the vitamin drops route?
I think it's to do with several things - she's weird about textures (like DP ) so if she comes across anything new she spits it out. If there is something like a mash, and there's a random lump in it, again she screams like a banshee and spits the whole thing out, and refuses anymore.
Please help me!

Don't see why even if dad or mum comes home later the rest of the family can't eat together as a family. I appreciate some children might be put off by strong tasting foods but there's no reason why this can't be accommodated in family cooking. If you do separate food for kids and parents you are sending out some very dangerous messages. Like you have to be an adult to enjoy vegetables or this kind of fishfinger crap is good enough for you but not for us or you're not good enough/sophisticated enough/ old enough for the food we eat.

Obviously there are exceptions. Sometimes dp and I have a takeaway curry on a Friday night when the kids are in bed etc.

But generally our kids get the message that we all eat the same things at meal times. Meal times are pleasurable. We talk to each other. We enjoy food. If we don't eat we will be hungry later. We need to eat a range of foods. We need to try new things. If we don't like something that's ok as long as we've tried it etc.

hurricane - "we have a problem with obesity in this country not undereating." To an extent I agree with you, although I think that it is fair to say that we have an unhealthy food culture in general - not just obesity, but eating disorders like anorexia and bulemia are also on the increase. I think that our relationships with food do need some examination, but I am not sure that it is as simple as you suggest.

It is endemic on websites like MN where food is regularly debated and seen as "good" and "bad" - ie innocent smoothies vs fruit shoots.

Whilst this is related to the fact that there is alot of information relating to healthy and unhealthy foods and we have to endure hours of tv devoted to food dictators with dubious qualifications telling us to NEVER eat chocolate and make pizzas from sweet potatos, it creates a strange food morality where being good is equated to eating vegetables and being bad is equated to eating chips. I personally love vegetables, but I like chips too and don't feel "bad" if I eat them sometimes.

Likewise, I feed my (very good eater) ds innocent smoothies and water most of the time, but I do not pass out in a fit of concern if he has a fruit shoot at a party.

If guilt becomes associated with a food, it can only have bad consequences IMO and create unnecessary cravings. So trying to make a parent feel guilty that their child is having problems with food is completely unhelpful. Rant over

Amidaiwish,

Not sure why eating together is more of a problem in the SE?? Us northerners do actually work and commute too you know .

Seriously though I do see that sometimes it is difficult but then you must make it the priority to eat together at the weekends I think.

Eating out is a great tool - we go to a family friendly pizza place and both girls eat well.

BTW I have a very fussy, 3 year old picker and a 16 month who eats like a horse! I did BLW second time around and I think it did help. Mealtimes are a bit of a battle so am dropping into these threads for inspiration....must stay calm mantra is needed.

rantmum - you talk complete sense.

hurricane - my children are asleep by 8pm. they cannot eat with us at 8.30pm.

laundrylover, yes i know, sorry.

have you tried those Ella's Kitchen smoothies in the sachets? My ds loves them as he loves squeezing them out himself. Occasionally if he is ill or being really fussy he will literally have breakfast and 2 of them - but they are packed with frut and veg so i know he is still getting some food in him. Doesn't interfere with him eating properly the rest of the time.

Mmm... take your points rantmum but I do find the incredible anxiety with stuffing food down babies and toddlers (and often unnatural kinds of food like formula milk, pureed food when babies are old enough for proper food and 'children's food' which comes in jars, frozen portions or brightly packaged and advertised and a massive cost and is different from 'adult's food') really weird and really worrying and some of theset things (like formula feeding) has been linked with obesity later in life or just a failure to develop a palate etc because baby foods are so bland and unnatural tasting (since they've been super zapped).

Parents do have to accept that they are responsible for their child's eating habits and only them for the early years since what goes into their children's mouth is bought, prepared and fed to them by their parents except for the time they're in nursery or school. Show me a fussy eater and 9 1/2 times out of 10 I'll show you a parent who is over anxious, badly informed or has somehow got into bad habits. There's a difference between pointing out that we are responsible for what our chidren eat and their attitude to food and making them feel guilty.

And as you say points to real probelms with our culture that we have a surfeit of food (butter mountains etc), a massive and growing problem with obesity yet instead of these issues being properly addressed we're constantly worry whether our kids are getting enough. Weird.

Yet, also you can be obese but also malnourished.

amaida, I'm not here to tell people what they should do but if people don't provide good role models for their kids and eat together as a family and provide separate food for parents and children etc etc they can't then be surprised when there children don't eat well or pick up bad habits or whatever. DP and I always eat with the kids. Admittedly we're both home by 5 pm so this is easy for us. BUt if one of us is going to be home late or eat out (as dp is doing tonight) the other will still eat with the kids. For us family mealtimes are important. Obviously there are times when dp and I go out to eat alone without the kids but the vast majority of our mealtimes are spent together or certainly with one of us eating with the kids. Obviouslt this isn't going to be possible for every family but it's important for us. And I think it's a big reason why our kids our brilliant but healthy eaters.

arse to the - children are made into fussy eaters. dd was BORN that way.

she never had formula or jars and i did the whole blw thing she is just stubborn and not terribly adventurous with food. getting a little better at 3 1/2. tbh i don't really worry anymore as it appears unlikely that she will starve.

Maybe there are exceptions chevre but no child will starve itself (unless they have severe psychological problems). To all of those who've said that children only like/ will only eat bland and non-spicy food I just wonder what you think happens to children in Asian countries??? Children learn their tastes and habits from their families and cultures. They start learning in the womb (apparently swallowing more amniotic fluid when it's sweeter), continue through breastfeeding (breastmilk varies according to what the mother eats so bottle fed babies have already been exposed to a more limited range of tastes one possible reason why bottlefeeding is more linked to obesity than breast), continues through how they are weaned (again shop bought baby food is more bland and limits babies palates) and then develops with what parents eat, how they eat etc and what and how they feed their kids. Very little of children's tastes for food are 'natural' or genetic. You only have to go to different countries to see the cultural influence. This country has a massive babyfood industry and forumla milk. There's big bucks in it and it's in the interest of this industry that kids' tastes are kept unsophisticated and unnatural cos then you have to go out and pay loads of money for 'special' food when you could just mash up the healthy food the adultsare having.

Chevre - I'm with you. My DS is just difficult with food. Mind you, he's fairly strange about quite a lot of things (since we've moved house he has been through each room, politely asking me to rearrange furniture until he's happy with it. Which I think is a little odd for 2 and a half, but there you go). When he was a smaller baby, he didn't want milk, and asked for water all the time (wonderful when you're worried about his weight). Then he decided milk was OK for a bit (definitely not an allergy issue). As long as they're not starving, I think the best thing you can do is try and be relaxed about it.

Hurricane - I sympathise with many of your points - buut - I do think that toddlers need to eat little and often - requiring their meals and snacks to be nutrious of course but suitable for their energy needs and I don't think the western habit of a heavy meal in the evening - at the childs bedtime is a good idea at all - we encourage our dc's to sit with us and eat the same foods (especially at the weekend) but I do give them tea at 5pm before bath and bed by 7pm.

Involving my children in food prep and choosing veg and growing our own which I am planning for next year is the key for me. I do not think it is necessary to make an unwilling toddler sit for a whole dinner with their parents - for school age children mealtimes will fall into the same pattern as the parents as the school routine will encourage this.

that is my 2p worth

also - some attractivly packaged healthy snack foods (like ellas kitchen) will not bring about the end of civilisation so I no longer feel guilty for allowing my children to have them - when I cook with them presentation is also important - it is part of the eating experience.

Despite all my concerns about ds - he has consistently been at the top of the scale for weight and height and has never been short of energy (unlike me!!) - he knows how muchhe needs to eat!

I don't see why the parent that is with the children in the evening can't eat at the same time as the children!?

You can still spend time with the other parent when he comes home and has his dinner.

Yes children need smaller meals and more often. However, it can work around your 3 meals a day.

Breakfast together,
Snack - carrot sticks, cucumber sticks, cheese cubes, fruit, brown bread, my children loves it when we sit and cut fruit up together and they get to choose what fruit they want.
lunch - together
Snack - as above snack
dinner - together

It is going to confuse them if they see you either running around whilst they are supposed to be sitting quietly eating. What you seem to be doing looks much more interesting. You need to strike a balance though, they don't need you sitting there staring at them and "pressurising" them into eating. Why should they eat when you are not.

If for example you would like them to eat fruit, get them to choose the fruit they want, sit down with them and cut it up for them, eat a bit of it yourself.

They should not be offered anything else. That's is the way we have done it with our children. Most of the time they eat cauliflower, carrots, cucumbers, etc. and sometimes they don't.

It is the same with adults though, sometimes I like to have a carrot sometimes it is the last thing I fancy.

Agree bigmouth about snacks (we usually have a sit down snack break of fruit and nuts or crackers or yoghurt or whatever) and toddlers finding it hard to sit down. Dd1 would never sit on a highchair so moved on and off a proper chair as soon as she was able. For dd2 we bought a cheaper version of the trip trap so again she could climb on and off. Now dd1 (5) does sit through an adult meal and dd2 (3) is getting better at this. As with everything else if you give attention to undesirable behaviour (food refusing, running around during dinner...) you will just encourage it so we give attention to positive behaviour (trying new foods, sitting nicely at table) and ignore the less desirable behavour as far as possible. It works. Again, children will never learn to sit down during meal times if they don't see this modelled and encouraged. It takes a long time to train them and it's not always easy but if you don't have a go you'd never be able to go out to eat with them or have people around or anything.

It's not just the food that's important at family meal-times it's the talking and the feeling that the whole family takes an interest in each member of it and so on... These are really important messages.

Also, cannot stand to hear and see families who have the television on during meal times. This is evil.

Hurricane - to hear that DD's fussy eating could be to do with my anxieties isn't all that helpful. I really do my best - I sit with her whilst eating (granted weekends are the only day we eat together, and this makes no difference to her eating habits) and we sing songs, I tell her about my day, make her laugh etc. The focus isn't always on what she's eating. I have tried to give her as much variety as possible since I weaned her, a range of finger foods, mashed up stuff and chopped up "adult meals".
I do agree with you though on the point that it's something that's happened over the past few months - 6 months ago I was so proud as she was eating pretty much everything I put in front on her, chewing on brocolli florets, picking out peas, grabbing carrot sticks and eating them quite happily. She has become far more choosy since I've started introducing things like homemade muffins, crumpets etc.

I think I need to be more relaxed about it, reading into your replies I think she's picking up on my anxieties and I'm probably forcing the issue with her.

I like the idea of offering her the same fruit for a week, then something new the following week etc.

BTW I never offer her alternatives - I stopped that a while ago hoping she'd be hungry enough to at least try whatever I was offering.....

I would love all of us to eat as a family together every night but it's just not practical. Maybe I should have some more kids to solve the problem

aunty finding it difficult to see how you can say, 'Hurricane - to hear that DD's fussy eating could be to do with my anxieties isn't all that helpful.'

and,
'I think I need to be more relaxed about it, reading into your replies I think she's picking up on my anxieties and I'm probably forcing the issue with her.'

in the same post.

I'm not intending any criticism. How a parent goes about feeding her child is none of my business at the end of the day but I don't see what's wrong with pointing out that it is parents who are solely responsible for what and how our children eat at least in the early years and this is a responsibility which needs consideration and to be taken seriously which most of us do.

Good luck

So Hurricane how to put it into practice? we are all brainwashed by a lot of "baby food" book writers and on top of that we freak out if they don't eat, feel rejected when they don't want to eat what we spent hours preparing, and feel jealous when they eat what the childminder offers...we should all just go on holiday imo and let them eat what they want. Just make sure they have access to healthy foods. ds has a cupboard in the kitchen with his snacks, usually dried fruit, veggie biscuits and tesco slurpers (fruit puree). He helps himself when he wants to, I make sure he has cooked food available at mealtimes(another blooming myth, I eat when I'm hungry, but for the sake of my marriage I socially eat with dh in the evening) after ds's bedtime!) so my conclusion is, help by giving practical tips, philosophise about the concept, write a book and make millions.

auntyspan she is probably at about the worst age foodwise. She should get better over time. I am in general of the hurricane school of thought re cooking the same food and eating together. My two are reasonable eaters, although DS is significantly better than DD. DD is pretty good with veg and will eat carrots, peas, brocolli, cabbage, cauliflower, spinach, mushrooms, most things in a tomato sauce etc but not so good on fruit. Her absolute favourite is raspberries. I have been to PYO and frozen a lot. Other than that she likes strawberries, blackberries, blueberries and will eat apples/pears/bananas when she feels like it which she often doesn't. She is quite keen though on stewed fruit which I sometimes cook in a batch and freeze in individual portion sizes. A popular one is apple and raisin and cinnamon. Would this suit your DD or too lumpy? Also nice mixed with natural yoghurt.

If you use eating apples you do not need to add sugar.

Granted Hurricane - you have a point there - was reading through the replies as I typed - shows what a shocking memory I have. And I absolutely am taking the responsibility seriously, as I hope this post is showing.

I've gone down the stewed fruit avenue and it worked for a couple of days and then it was the same old story.

Thanks again for your thoughtful replies ladies...

Hi finally have some time to give you veg muffin recipe.
Got this off the net.
Carrot adn Courgette Muffins:

American measures.

3/4 cup orange juice
1/2 cup melted butter or marg (I use same amount veg oil instead)
1 large egg
1 cup flour
1 cup whole wheat flower
1/2 cup sugar
1 tsp baking powder
1 tsp ground cinnamon
1/2 tsp bicarb of soda
1/2 tsp salt
2 medium carrots and 1 medium courgette (grated)

1. Heat oven to 200degrees C 2)Combine oj, butter and egg in large bowl, mix well. Add remainng ingredients except veggies. Stir just enough to moisten. Then gently stir in veg.
2. Spoon into muffin pan
3. bake 20-22 min let cool 5 min and then remove from tray.

I can also recommend this book Someone else on MN recommended it once and I can vouch its brilliant, a thin little book but brilliant.

She has a pumpkin recipe, I adapt that sometimes by replacing butternut with sweet potato instead. There are also some gluten free recipes, and cocoa and courgette etc.

HTH