Violin at 4.5yo?

[Worriedandlost]

Does anyone have experience of dc starting violin at 4-4.5, traditional lessons, not Suzuki? Ds2 is quite keen to start lessons as his older sister is playing but my concern is that it will be waste of time and money at this age? I mean he can start later on and progress much quicker than he would now. On the other hand if he starts early he simply would not remember his life without playing an instrument and it will be easier in terms of motivation? And dd's teacher reckons that younger siblings are quicker to learn as they already surrounded by music. Don't know what to do...

[Worriedandlost]

Parental involvement goes without saying.... :)

[Pythonesque]

A point I'm not sure I've seen made is that the younger a child starts an instrument, the more parental involvement is needed, regardless of the teaching method. Also, you need to find a teacher who is good with younger beginners, some are and some aren't.

[MomOfTwoGirls2]

I think combination of suzuki and traditional teaching methods provides the best of both worlds. Both methods have a lot to offer. Many teachers do this.

My DDs do Suzuki method, and many Suzuki teachers will introduce sight reading, scales, technical exercises, etc. Especially in group class setting.
DD2 is doing Suzuki through school. Once they start work on book 4, they will also start preparing for Grade 3.

DD1 has refused to do grades. Suzuki suits her personality better, she hates exams, and she likes the Suzuki repertoire, especially book 4 & 5. But her teacher has her doing technical exercises and sigh reading every practice, in addition to Suzuki practice.

[Lashalicious]

maggiethecat, I so agree with your comments. I think there is great value in all the different methods, my son's teacher uses a combination and explains why each is beneficial. As you said, whether it's this or that method, the key is parental involvement. I think this absolutely includes encouraging every child's innate potential to develop pitch, tone, and intonation to an excellent, high level.

[maggiethecat]

I've read with interest the comments on here.

My dd was taught non Suzuki from 5-8 and was doing well not just by exam standards but playing with good musicality etc.

Then we moved and I wanted her to have a very good teacher and one who was a committed teacher rather than a performer first who supplemented with teaching (having had too many lesson disruptions on this front). So we heard of the teacher who dd has had from 8-12.

Turned out that she was Suzuki and so dd had a quick introduction to books 1 & 2 before moving on to 3. What improved greatly about dd were posture, bow hold and technique (her aural development had already been quite secure). And this has made a big difference in her tonal quality.

I have always sat in on dd's lessons and taken notes and guided her at home with practice (I'm not musically trained).

This parental involvement WHETHER IT'S SUZUKI OR ANY OTHER METHOD I believe makes a huge difference to a child's development and it would be interesting if this factor could be measured as a marker of musical development. Perhaps there would not be too much difference between the methods.

[Worriedandlost]

Our "traditional" teacher does ensemble work for her students, I thought it was common practice? Perhaps I was wrong...

Competitive mums... I wish there were more around, as there is virtually no one to discuss music lessons not to mention other things!

[MightHaveDoneBetter]

Worriedandlost yes - I know what you mean ... it IS the family environment ....but if you have no good reference points yourself... then Suzuki can offer a good framework/structure - (as can any sort of child philosophy .. eg Montessori's ideas)

Personally I thought that Nurtured by Love was really rather dry - I much preferred To Learn With Love

as for 'responding sensitively to others' .. supposedly this is cultivated via the listening process...eg: why does this sound better than this (teacher plays two different versions of same phrase) and then via ensemble work - personally I think that playing in a violin ensemble (or whatever) is probably going to encourage more sensitive interaction than playing on some sports team (but that's just my opinion).

yes - mums are competitive and I've seen it just ruining some kids. Not everybody can be a doctor/lawyer/management consultant etc.. we (as a society) need to value everybody. What's more, I don't understand those parents who sign their kids up to every single activity imaginable (including tutoring) and then wonder why their children are exhausted...

I think that the very best thing about the Suzuki method (as I observed it from the better teachers .. of which there are only a handful) was that nothing was ever 'wrong'... it was just 'not correct yet'...the Suzuki I observed was affirming and forgiving ... while also being dynamic and challenging....

[Worriedandlost]

I asked dd's teacher to add 10 mins to dd's lesson to fit in ds, but her schedule is already finalised for September, so we decided to wait till someone drops :)

[Worriedandlost]

MightHaveDoneBetter not sure about inborn perfect pitch, I think it is largely inherited, I am not even sure it can be trained in spite of what literature on a subject saying. Dh started his lessons at 10 yo and has perfect pitch, dd has perfect pitch too, she started piano lessons and violin lessons before 5, ds - don't know, to be seen, even though he was singing almost in tune at 9 months and dd could not at least till 2yo.

I read Suzuki's "Nurtured by love"...don't quite get why Suzuki method creates "disciplined human beings who have big hearts, respond sensitively to others and work hard " and traditional method does not? I don't believe any method can create it actually, it is up to the individual family and circumstances. I rather see it as a marketing slogan tbh.

And I think mums are getting competitive because they just don't have choice-to enter into best educational options dc have to have grades, levels, etc

[MightHaveDoneBetter]

agree completely whizzbang1 ... especially about the sightreading. But ya know what is absolutely BRILLIANT about the UK? It's those Paul Harris sightreading books with the rhythms that a kid can clap, then bow in the air and then play... (also sing). Now - if every (non musician) Suzuki parent would just learn to read rhythms, supplement the Suzuki method (and practice sessions) with those books (and a lot of hugs),... AND if all parents would just HELP their kids learn to read rhythms (it's really not THAT difficult) .... then we'd have a bunch of good little players who could all get together in their leisure time and play quartets... or in an orchestra....ANY ensemble playing is always fun and so motivational but ya gotta be able to read...

also - Suzuki DOES work before a child can read.. that's the whole point (at least that's what I THOUGHT was the point... )... reading music is difficult and takes a lot of patience .. why hamper a kid who wants to express themselves on a keyboard or violin? pull things together as you go - introduce concepts gradually - it's a process ...... not a set of results.

.. as for all this age stuff... I just can't get into the idea of limiting progress: 'oh - you can't learn to play until you're 7 because you won't be able to read the music'.... this is rubbish - just hand the kid an instrument and let them have a go... get them into a group and they can imitate the older kids.

[whizzbang1]

I was a Suzuki student and went onto to study in the US - and there is no way I could imagine wanting my children to learn via Suzuki.

Firstly, for many of the reasons stated above; Suzuki extreme, hot housing, competitive parenting, and don't even start me on the things that music teachers got away with in the 80's.

Secondly, I feel Suzuki works before a child can read. Having a heightened aural awareness is brilliant, however a Suzuki 'born and bred' student often has little ability to sight read. They may be able to play their repertoire brilliantly, even non-mechanically, however their ability to play in an orchestra, or to improvise, or perform at short notice is often impaired.

So if your child is an early reader, then why shouldn't they learn to read music. In the same way that you can bring your child up bi-lingual.

Anyway, OP, apologies for the waffle, I hope your children enjoy their lessons!

[Moominmammacat]

Completely agree MightHaveDoneBetter ... it is the competitive mummy bit that I abhor. I mean ... my four year old was moved by a Surrey mummy because she thought her son should have been leading (in as far as a four year old can lead anything). Anyway, my DS has a diploma now and hers doesn't ... not that I caught the competitive vibe. Vile though ... Good Suzuki, where the teacher adapts it to fit the child, is just fine. Suzuki Extreme is not.

[ReallyTired]

MightHaveDoneBetter, I'm not a music teacher. I have experience of Suzuki both from being a child and being a parent. In Surrey in the 1980s there was a definate dark side to suzuki. As a small child it was horrible being compared to other children in the class by other parents.

I had to admit that I had an adversion to my daughter having violin lessons because of my experience as a child. My daugher pestered for violin lessons after seeing Tamsin Little perform. I gave in after three years of dd pestering. Now realise that the dark side that I experienced was Surrey competitve parenting and not Suzuki. Doing Suzuki with my daughter has been a healing experience.

Most music learning is pretty repetitive. In the early days children learn to play in tune and that requires a bit of mimicary. It could be argued that the suzuki children to learn their pieces parrot fashion. However we also learn to speak by listening to our mothers. It could be argued that we learn to speak parrot fashion in the early stages, but unlike a parrot we learn how to use the words in the right context.

I feel you have to take a step back and think what music is. Music existed long before it was written down in music notation. There are musical traditions all round the world that do not use western notation. The music score is an aid rather than an end itself.

I have read some of the suzuki books and its clear he had ambitions rather greater than just teaching a child to play the violin. He wanted to create a good character, a work ethic as well as noble heart. Suzuki had lived through the horror of the second world war and wanted a better future for mankind.

[MightHaveDoneBetter]

Suzuki is not about creating wunderkind... it's about creating beautiful and disciplined human beings who have big hearts, respond sensitively to others and work hard so that they can become productive members of society... ... (please read the literature).

Unfortunately in this country, the philosophy and method have become completely highjacked by the competitive mummy set who care only about grades, GCSEs, A levels and what university their kids go to.

apologies for being so direct but it just breaks my heart when I see the way that some mums treat their offspring...and then mock (or gossip about) the performances of other children... and I have seen plenty of
this first hand.

AND JulieMichelleRobinson - there are many more differences between the suzuki & trad than you might imagine... am just wondering how many suzuki concerts/conferences/workshops you might have attended... and how many suzuki lessons have you actually observed ... I wish you would stop presenting yourself as an authority on string pedagogy ..... there is always more to learn!!!

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

And of course, you get the occasional young child who is not only technically competent but really emotionally mature with the music... but they are far rarer.

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

Moomin,

I think that may have more to do with tackling comparatively advanced repertoire at a young age, while still lacking emotional and musical maturity. The only difference between Suzuki and 'traditional' in that regard is that Suzuki-taught children are more likely to be doing the pieces whilst younger. I imagine (and hope) that many of those 7yo-plays-really-hard-piece children grow up to play the same pieces as adults with much more musicality.

The other strength of Suzuki in this regard is that it does get children listening to someone else's interpretation of a piece, which is generally a 'received' interpretation, and listening to it quite young. There are things that most performers do in a particular concerto, for example, or ways that a symphony is traditionally played.

Of course, if you're me, you rebel against that anyway and play Kreisler's Praeludium und Allegro like it's a piece of Bartok (once won a competition with that, but my teacher was pulling hair!).

[Moominmammacat]

I worry about what Suzuki pupils end up doing ... it can all be so mechanical. Think Nicola Benedetti may have been a Suzuki at some point but apart from her? It may have its good points but it does churn out repetitive little machines ...

[MightHaveDoneBetter]

Dear Worried & Lost ... and other parents with little wannabe violinists/pianists...

research into 3 - 6 year old muscle coordination skills shows that often, small muscle coordination (that's fingers/hands) precedes gross muscle coordination (legs etc) . And of course, skill acquisition = esteem/confidence building. This is why music (violin or piano) can be good ... one of mine is still unable to ride a bicycle (almost 18 now) but could play Suzuki bk 5 pieces age 8 - 9. (no comment on quality - but intonation was superb)

also - I have noticed (and would be veryvery intererested to hear from others on this) that many younger children seem to have almost perfect pitch.. I've heard toddlers singing while sitting in shopping trolleys at grocery stores... their abilities to sing perfectly (hitting all intervals correctly) is astonishing... are many of us born with perfect pitch ... and then we lose it because it isn't cultivated?

other thoughts- yes - the Suzuki method has some pitfalls... however, if you really want to learn about it read 'To Learn With Love' by William Starr.. (It's maybe not in print any longer but you might be able to get it from the suzuki association in london). All very american so maybe annoying but interesting ideas.

lastly - I just wonder if we are maybe too focused in this country on abrsm grades and suzuki levels...

love your child, love the PROCESS of learning... and they will respect you, themselves and try their very best.

.... 'the woods would be very silent if the only birds that sang there were the ones that sang the very best'

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

Well, after all this...

Today's lesson, Miss 6yo decided that she was ready to start using her fingers. We've only tackled first finger today, but she learnt two new pieces from Stepping Stones. We sightread with solfège (Do is lower string, Re is first finger, So is next string up) and then played it. Hand shape is looking good, bow is going nice and straight even with the added complications, and first finger is correctly in tune (give or take) without any visual aid. I knew she'd do it when she decided to.

Two lessons left this term...

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

Who was if dropped the stead down the stairs?

[Worriedandlost]

I read that Maxim Vengerov left his Stradivari violin couple of times :) He was lucky to find it. And he was not a child anymore....

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

6.5 likes to put her fiddle upside down on the floor. 9yo not much better. Otoh I left mine on a train aged 18.

[Worriedandlost]

JulieMichelleRobinson
ReallyTired, oh no! You are sooo wrong about 7 yos! :) They do drop violins, and I know one 7yo who still does not sight read after two years of lessons!

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

And with all that, I still have kids do exam sightreading a fifth out at grade one....,,

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

All I will say is that there are good reasons why I don't hold the violin that way, in my particular case, and therefore why I don't teach that technique.

My4yo pianists read music fluently to the level they play. For strings... Google Stringbabies. It's an alternative. Suzuki is not for everyone and I worry about the sightreading lag. I concentrate hard on teaching it, because I never understood why people were so bad at it.