The Wonderful Thing About Brexits, Is Brexits Are Wonderful Things

[CatherineTheLate]

The whole point of Brexit is that we should trade with a group of countries with no political interference from either side so that no-one should interfere in a country's own affairs. The trade agreement should be limited to the countries involved and not affect the way any of the parties trades with other countries.

Is that outlandish? It's the way that most countries deal with each other, I think that a sensible person would say, "No." However, many Remainers cannot imagine that they should let it happen without claiming that their whole lives and the lives of their children have been ruined forever and trying to subvert it. They should ask themselves, "Why?"

[TheCaddyisaBaddie]

Ah something on which we can agree on. Shame you dont recognise this trait in yourself though.

[ContinuityError]

Some might say that EU has raised the bar on standards, not because others are dangerous, but to protect their cartel and deny cheaper alternatives from being sourced elsewhere. Tim Martin of weatherspoons has made that comment several times.

Tim Martin’s claims have been easily disproved a number of times.

Maybe you should be asking yourself exactly what Tim Martin gets out of leaving the EU, because I don’t believe he gives a shiny shit about anything other than increasing his profit margins.

[longwayoff]

Quick quote from John Crace regarding Brexit party and it's supporters "The unspeakable in pursuit of the untreatable".

[LifeContinues]

Mostly it’s my father-in-law banging on about how it’s going to go back to being like ‘the good old days

Opinions of older persons carries a lot of weight because they are all eligible to vote and they are big in numbers. Over 65s are about 20%?of UK population which is 13+ Million and about 30% of the electorate.

Big changes have happened in the UK in the lifetime of someone in the 65+ age group. Maybe the changes have happened too quickly to absorb. So they vote on what they remember and understand.

[frumpety]

I think most countries in the world are members of trading blocs because it is obviously beneficial to be in one. That is how most countries deal with each other. I am fairly sure that by leaving the EU trading bloc, the UK then cannot expect the rest of the world to leave theirs, so we can trade in a way that suits your particular idea of how trade agreements should work.

Is it subversive to ask for examples of the real tangible benefits of leaving the EU ?

[Peregrina]

Not all of us over 65s voted Leave, but we do know about the changes first hand, which clearly some posters don't.

I have absolutely no desire to go back to what I remember the 1950s being like.

[1tisILeClerc]

I wouldn't doubt that for very specific, limited range of trade activity, things might be better, but overall it will be worse.
If you think of 3 'middle range' supermarkets where you might do your shopping. For a large trollyfull of a whole range of items that you might buy for a fortnight or so, the price DIFFERENCE will be relatively small.
If one supermarket is selling baked beans 'on special' at half price and you fill your trolly up with 75 tins of beans, yes it might be a good deal cheaper, but presumably you don't want to eat beans forever.
There are IIRC around 43 major trade 'groupings' registered at the WTO and most concern deals with adjoining countries for products that they trade in large volumes.
The world is highly regulated, partly by trade deals, but multinational companies have a stranglehold in some commodities with powers greater than many small sovereign countries.

[longwayoff]

'We want no deal brexit immediately and to leave on WTO terms". I hear this a lot, presumably such phrases are passed out to believers from Brexit central, to be parroted frequently if questions are asked. Wtf does it mean? Other than being an impossible route to utter chaos how will it work? You had all better hope that Boris is simply pulling your strings and will renege on his promises in his usual manner, blaming someone other than h imself. There is no thing else he can do.

[Grapeyes]

I think part of the problem is that people have lost sight of Brexit altogether. It’s become a class division, the haves v the have nots, the highly educated v those with less education, workers v thinkers, experts v. the man on the streets, those who want foreign nationals out v the ‘liberals’, them v us.

The ‘boring’mundane talk of trade deals and subsidising and welfare standards is lost behind the frothing of ‘we’re being denied our rights’, ‘we voted and it’s being ignored’ the fact that we ALL voted in relative ignorance has been forgotten.

What alarms me is that behind all the stuff I just mentioned, impartial, well informed people are saying no deal Brexit will be an economic catastrophe but people are too busy frothing to listen.

[longwayoff]

That's a reasonable assessment grapeyes. It's worrying that there are logic, reason and irrefutable proofs on one side that can't be opposed by reasoned debate so all that's left on the 'other side' is name-calling and seeing who can stick their fingers in their ears whilst shouting loudly to drown out opposition. I fear they can shout loudly enough to end up with Farage as PM. Which may sound outlandish but - I give you Donald Trump.

[1tisILeClerc]

{What alarms me is that behind all the stuff I just mentioned, impartial, well informed people are saying no deal Brexit will be an economic catastrophe but people are too busy frothing to listen.}

The reactions of the world leaders at the time of the referendum was on the lines of 'why the hell do you want to do this'?

Stability in the world is something to strive for and the UK's position as a 'bridge' to many parts in terms of diplomatic effort was considerably valued.
The Antics of BoJo as foreign secretary probably started the rot, if not others before him. So much of the world depends on 'face' diplomacy and integrity, the UK has smashed the fragile network, at least in terms of UK involvement.
In this respect the UK is acting like the spoiled brat who has smashed all it's toys, and not mummy and daddy are simply going to sit down and watch as the stupidity gradually dawns on the child and the realisation that there will be no more toys.

[bellinisurge]

Op is really going for it today. If you want a No Deal Brexit, op, then go ahead and keep up this nonsense. You are showing yourself up and driving people away from the idea.
I voted Remain. I was prepared to accept WA. I think we solve NI border issue by having a border in the sea and making NI a special economic area.
But it seems that BeLeavers like op just want to trot out No Deal bollocks and alienate people. Ho hum.

[RedSheep73]

Brexit isn't about trade, ffs, it's about stucking two fingers up to Johnny Foreigner. Tgat's why renainers hate it. Because we believe cooperation makes the world better, not isolationism and division.

[bellinisurge]

What on earth is a "Remainer". The vote was 3years ago. Why this ridiculous "if you aren't with us you're against us bullshit".
Sounds like playground mean girl bollocks. Such fucking kids who think they have the secrets of the universe and anyone who isn't in their clique is not worth considering.

[CatherineTheLate]

"There’s a saying, not everyone who wants Brexit is a racist. But every racist wants Brexit."

Isn't it strange then that Sir Oswald Mosley, leader of the British Union of Fascists, campaigned for the UK to be part of the EEC and his followers still support the idea. www.oswaldmosley.com/europe-a-nation/

And what about the racists in the Labour Party, Lib Dems, SNP, Greens etc.? A substantial minority if not a majority of them voted Remain.

Slogans are not the same as facts.

[bellinisurge]

What are you talking about?

[Peregrina]

Big changes have happened in the UK in the lifetime of someone in the 65+ age group. Maybe the changes have happened too quickly to absorb. So they vote on what they remember and understand.

In which case, like me, they would vote Remain to keep the status quo, rather than Leave for the biggest gamble on their future that they are likely to see for many a long year. Like gambling, there are some winners, but there are many more losers.

[Mistigri]

I think part of the problem is that people have lost sight of Brexit altogether. It’s become a class division, the haves v the have nots, the highly educated v those with less education, workers v thinkers, experts v. the man on the streets, those who want foreign nationals out v the ‘liberals’, them v us.

This is a good point, although I partly disagree with the idea that it's about class division. All the Brexiters I know personally are haves not have-nots: my dad, wealthy retired banking consultant, my uncle, wealthy retired engineer, an ex colleague at work (shipping manager who took early retirement because of .... Brexit ), my best friend's otherwise delightful granny (retired homeowner who lives in a posh village in Rees Mogg's neck of the woods).

They do have one thing in common though, it's on the tip of my tongue 😛

I think you're right that it's no longer about Brexit - which in my experience most brexiters can't coherently describe anyway (mostly they lack the legal and economic knowledge to be able to express accurately what sort of trade relationship they want). Brexit is as you say more of a signal of social attitudes, primarily about new vs old, liberalism vs authoritarianism, nationalism vs multiculturalism.

[bellinisurge]

I agree. You read some of the posts on here and anyone not with "them ", is against "them". The difficulty in getting Brexit through Parliament is not a sign that it's more difficult than advertised but that Parliament, despite being elected after the referendum is "full of Remainers". It becomes increasingly swivel-eyed loon territory with no wish to make compromises themselves. Only a wish for other people to compromise. And becoming increasingly like extremists.

[CatherineTheLate]

Interesting piece in the Telegraph on a benefit of being in the EU:

"Denis Viscu, 20, arrived in the UK in 2007 with his family and between July 2014 and March 2017 received 14 convictions for 20 offences including robbery and knife possession.

But when the Home Office tried to deport him they were blocked by judges who held that under EU law he had rights to enhanced protection under the EU Citizens' Directive as he had lived in the UK for five years.

During his legal fight to stay in the UK Viscu was further convicted of four more offences, including possession of a knife in a public place, burglary and possession of a Class A drug and was sentenced to a total of 4 ½ years detention in a young offenders institution."

Snip

"Under Chapter IV of the Citizens' Directive, 'Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there.'

A member state can only expel an EU resident where they have strong grounds to believe their presence poses a risk to the public.

But the EU has added the caveat that 'previous criminal convictions shall not in themselves constitute grounds for' denying an EU citizen their right of residency."

We can all sleep safe in our beds tonight.

[Jason118]

@CatherineTheLate and your point is what? Some people are low-life's?

[Jason118]

The actual story is 'man breaks law and is jailed', surely?

[1tisILeClerc]

Myra Hindly was a lovely person too, apparently.
What about criminals who are Welsh, Scottish or anywhere else? They are criminals wherever they are.

[bellinisurge]

Don't understand why this is a point in favour of a No Deal Brexit.
Hindley, Brady, Shipman etc - all British.

[1tisILeClerc]

I am presuming it is a desperate attempt by CatherineTheLate to make out that the EU is so terrible.
The case she highlighted was an EU citizen who resided in the UK legally. There will be plenty of UK citizens who have committed offenses in Europe.

As the saying goes, shit happens and the cooperation between the police across the EU work to make the whole of Europe as safe as possible.