Did NS's threat of Indi 2 infuence your EU vote?

[Corcory]

If you are an SNP supporter was this your main season for voting remain or if you are from another part of the UK was the threat of Scottish independence another factor in your voting reasons.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

Re Trident, I'm happy to accept that it'll take about 10 years to safely dismantle and remove (and fuck knows how long for the radiation leaks to deplete ) and yes, we could charge a good rent for that till it's gone. After that we'll have access to the oil fields to the west of the country, where development has been blocked by the MoD, assuming we still need it once our renewables are properly financed.

Health care workers moving north is a real possibility - we're still paying our student nurses a bursary, now canceled in England, and our junior doctors didn't need to strike. A new Scottish stock exchange is in the pipeline, and I can see HQs of companies trading in the EU moving here (or to Ireland, of course) once rUK is out of the EU. Even Sir Nicholas MacPherson has said that there would be many more opportunities for us, and he's not renowned for his ScotsNat credentials.

[Corcory]

Interesting article Bear. I can think of a few reasons why Scotland should not become independent of the rUK. In the EU referendum NS was so keen to tell us all that the EU was Scotland's biggest trading partner at 40% but if we went independent would in fact be leaving our biggest trading partner - 4 times greater than the EU, not counting oil and gas which we sell half of to rUK. How would Scotland manage to get a free trade deal with rUK? or would we not have one because we are in the EU? The £ - I quite like the £ and our Scottish notes but for some reason Alex Salmond seems to have dropped it like a stone when he was so passionate about it in the first Scottish referendum. So now I certainly don't trust the SNP further than I could throw them. They have done really badly with the Scottish economy and our education system they could so easily bankrupt the country.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

I don't understand the VAT paid in chain stores either- if Scotland wasn't part of the U.K. then they'd have to pay import duty on the goods sold in those department stores so it's not as if the equivalent VAT would be earned by Scotland.

Prettybird has covered the precedents. What import duty? Imposed by whom? I'm not aware of any trade deals having been done yet, given we're not indy yet.

[Peregrina]

I could see an Independent Scotland being a very attractive proposition to many people. The reason which caused them to Unite with England are now long gone.

(Must see if I can move there!)

[Corcory]

Import duties with rUK Herpiles! Our biggest trading partner that you are suggesting we leave.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

Would rUK not need our oil and gas if we were indy? Would they not still want our food and drink?

And as for the pound - debt-free! (as accepted by the UK Treasury last time round, but not widely publicised in MSM)

[HirplesWithHaggis]

I'm going to assume your spelling of my name is an autocorrect, it would be rather ill-mannered otherwise.

Import duties with rUK have yet to be agreed, but I doubt they'd want to make them so onerous we'd no longer want/afford their goods. Gotta sell them somewhere, and if perishable they can't really be sent too far away. Especially as transport costs would have to be added to the cost of produce...

(And that really harks back to the taxes levied on Scottish goods prior to the Union, surely rUK are a little more evolved these days, what with not having an empire any more?)

[Bearbehind]

I despair.

Sweden is in the EU.

Denmark chooses not to join- Scotland would be desperate to do so.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

Why would Scotland be desperate to join the Euro?

[Corcory]

Import duties with rUK Herpiles! Our biggest trading partner that you are suggesting we leave.

[Corcory]

Yes sorry it was auto correct Hirples. Sorry also for the repeat post.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

Yeah, I got that message when you posted it 14 minutes ago, phone playing up?

[Bearbehind]

Sorry, I was talking about joining the EU- Scotland couldn't join the EU as it stands so talk of joining the Euro is somewhat irrelevant.

However, given the Scottish independence manifesto was silent on any currency option pretty much dependent on keeping the pound or taking on the Euro, Scotland would actually be desperate to join the Euro in lieu of any other currency option.

[LunaLoveg00d]

I am absolutely not an SNP voter.

I voted to remain in the EU because I believed that was the best path for ALL of the UK. I am not surprised that the SNP are using this to clamour for yet another Independence Referendum. They seem to have forgotten how divisive and awful the last one was and it's just like Groundhog Day to have the same thing all over again.

If there were another IndyRef, I'd still be a very strong NO. I firmly believe that even outside the EU, we are better off standing with England, Wales and Northern Ireland than separate from our largest trade partners and together with Europe. This is uncharted territory - no country has ever left the EU in its current form before. Ms Sturgeon can make as many proclamations as she likes about what Scotland needs, deserves and wants and make predictions about what will happen, but she hasn't a clue. Nobody does - it's too far up in the air and negotiations haven't even started! If, for example, the UK negotiates to remove itself from the EU but remains in the EEA, her case is significantly weakened.

I am not seeing an upsurge in support for independence after this referendum. Just a general sense that the Scottish people are sick to the back teeth of referendums every 5 minutes and think it would be really nice if the SNP turned its attention to things which matter much more like the economy, education and the NHS.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

Well, I disagree that we couldn't stay in the EU, as mentioned earlier. If we don't have a currency union with rUK, we don't have any debt, (as stated by the UK Treasury last time round) which is a pretty good way to start an independent country. And of course we can use the £, or the Euro, or US$, or any other tradeable currency without actually joining it (though this reduces our control), or even set up our own.

[Bearbehind]

Prettybird has covered the precedents.

Given one of the 'precedents' quoted was Sweden who are actually part of the EU, I would dispute that

What import duty? Imposed by whom?

In the situation you referred to, you implied VAT sold sold by England domiciled companies would become Scottish revenue if Scotland were independent- that would not happen.

[Corcory]

But why would we want to cut ourselves off from our biggest trading partner. There is so much being made at the moment of the fact that we - the UK - must keep it's self in the single market and that we are daft to want to cut ourselves off from our biggest trading partner the EU. That is one of the main arguments of the remain camp yet the SNP are remainers but want to do the absolute opposite with the rUK! Very odd indeed.
What I am particularly concerned about is the reduction in trade that this would mean for Scotland with our biggest trading partner.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

Yes, Sweden are in the EU and not using the euro, that's a precedent which could be followed by Scotland. They've pinky-promised to join the euro at some point, but haven't done it yet, and there's no pressure from the EU to make them.

In an iScotland, VAT raised in Scotland would be paid to the Scottish exchequer, not sent down south as it is currently. I don't quite see your point - I'm honestly not trying to be difficult.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

I don't see that we would be cutting ourselves off from our biggest trading partner. If we still want their goods, and they still want ours, accommodations will be made. Imposing punitive tariffs in either direction would simply be cutting noses off, and business isn't usually so daft.

[Bearbehind]

My point is, you are talking about goods which you'd have to import if Scotland were independent so it's not comparable with VAT currently paid on goods purchased in Scotland in English companies.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

If Scotland left rUK it wouldn't be cutting off its main trading partner - there would of course still be trade, there may be a few additional barriers or it may be an Ireland/NI type agreement.

Another reason not so far mentioned to stay in the EU is that without the EU the rUK will be in a race to the bottom re human rights/equal rights/employment rights / environmental stuff etc.

The thought of the very right wing Tory government being in charge with no external checks is fairly worrying.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

And Sweden is not alone in being a member of the EU without joining the euro... precedents!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone

"The eurozone, officially called the euro area,[7] is a monetary union of 19 of the 28 European Union (EU) member states which have adopted the euro (€) as their common currency and sole legal tender. The other nine members of the European Union continue to use their own national currencies, although most of them are obliged to adopt the euro in future."

[Bearbehind]

I don't see that we would be cutting ourselves off from our biggest trading partner. If we still want their goods, and they still want ours, accommodations will be made. Imposing punitive tariffs in either direction would simply be cutting noses off, and business isn't usually so daft

This is where the arrogance of Scotland demanding independence from rUK or the UK demanding independence from the EU astounds me.

Neither are big enough to demand changes without any loss of other benefits.

[Bearbehind]

hirples you seem to continually ignore my argument that joining the Euro or not is dependent on being able to join the EU and Scotland's trade deficit means that is not an option.

[HirplesWithHaggis]

My point is, you are talking about goods which you'd have to import if Scotland were independent so it's not comparable with VAT currently paid on goods purchased in Scotland in English companies.

OK, these are presumably goods which we currently import, tariff-free from rUK? And you think we'd have to pay more to import them if we were indy? Well. maybe we would - but if we could source such goods cheaper from the EU (of which we would still be members) we'd just do that, so there's no point in rUK taking their ball away, it only damages them.

And once the goods are in Scotland, we could/would charge VAT on them, and that money would go to the Scottish treasury, instead of the English one, as it does at present.