What do you say to people who blame immigration for the fact school places are in short supply?

[Lottielou7]

Of the few people I know who voted for Brexit, they are adamant that school places are difficult to get because of immigration. The one who says it the most has 6 children! I can't stand this scapegoating. Personally, I think birth rates have risen generally. My friends and I all mostly have 3 children. I'm an only and as a child of the 80s people had mostly one or two.

So what do you say in response when people come out with this old chestnut.

[smallfox2002]

To which of course the response is: " How do you feel about being all idiot?"

[Just5minswithDacre]

I don't even understand what that means TBH. Small's retort works.

[bkgirl]

"english nations don't produce tyrants" 13:03 Oh dunno about that, try Cromwell, Henry Viii, Thatcher.....
the rest is ok ;)

[bkgirl]

Ignore last post (too many windows open and too tired).
Every child in the country should be treated equally. The point is they all should be looked after but because people vote tory (or new labour in the past) we end up with cutbacks in the schools.
The same gangsters sell off their playgrounds and playing fields to their mates for £2.50 whilst their little Henry or Kate gets sent to private school.
Hurrah.
But still, the sheep vote for it.

[SomeDaysIDontGiveAMonkeys]

Oh not more of this fgs

[SnowBells]

Ehm... for the woman who has six children... I'd just ask her, "How many immigrants have you seen with six children?"

[OlennasWimple]

I was one of the last baby boom generation at school - I was taught in a succession of portacabins, classrooms created from the library, and creative class sizes through mixing with other years.

Who could possibly have predicted that 30 odd years later I would have school age children ( who are being educated in portacabins, and building sites)

[shartsi]

OP the tory right wing govt will not always be in power even if remain had won. Leave or remain was about the EU, you can in future vote the tories out.

[bkgirl]

Leave or remain was about more than the EU for many. It was about who controls us and if our voices (votes) get heard. It was all about democracy and the duty of care the nation has to look after people who are already here. It was about transparency, a future expanded EU, a federal superstate and an EU army.It wasn't a simple question, it just appeared to be at first glance.

[bkgirl]

School places are pressured. It is crazy to think if a country cannot provide for its own population that people wouldn't be concerned about uncontrolled immigration.

Leavers aren't blaming immigration ; they are saying we cannot cope with uncontrolled immigration until we sort ourselves out. Not only because we are already have a massive gap between population and services; but because it is impossible to plan for services effectively if you have no idea what number of children are currently or will in future be entering the country.


Wise, logical words.If you disagree please take care to try and sound as reasonable.

[Lottielou7]

Shartsi - yes I realise we can vote the Tories out. But we're stuck with them until 2020 and what I'm saying is that at this moment in time I doubt they will address the problem of not enough school places. All the state schools in my area are over subscribed - I'm not saying that the problem itself is a myth but I do dispute that it is caused mainly by immigration.

I'm not going to respond to some of the latest posts because you clearly want to put words in my mouth and insult. If you read the thread properly, including my title you'll realise that. The point I made about the parent at my dd's school was in response to NoBetterName - who mentioned that she had noticed an 'us and them' mentality, which I also have.

I did not say 'I want a leavers view' I asked what people say in response to hearing that lack of school places is caused by immigration.

[BeMorePanda]

Thank goodness for all the children. the ageing population needs them.

Thank goodness we've left the country in the best possible state for them all

[Brokenbiscuit]

We didn't initially get our first choice of school for dd, though luckily, she did get a place later. I know a lot of people who have not got their first choice. We live in an area of high immigration.

It would be easy to make the link between immigration and not getting into the school of our choice, but it did not ever occur to me that this was part of the problem. The issue is not that there aren't enough school places. The issue is that there aren't enough good school places.

One of our local schools - part of a multi-academy trust - is failing. It used to admit 180 students each year. This year, I've heard it's closer to 60. The other local schools have all been massively over-subscribed because nobody wants to go to the failing school.

There may be small pockets of the country where there is a genuine numbers problem, but in an awful lot of areas, sorting out the schools that nobody wants their kids to attend would probably resolve the issue. There is no point in blaming immigrants for failures in government education policy.

[MangoMoon]

OP, you lost me when you resorted to the tedious MN bollocks of using the foul word 'forriners' in attempt to shut down and belittle anyone who dares to say anything about immigrants.

Lazy.

[smallfox2002]

BK girl, your point about numbers.

There were lots of indicators in 2010 that we would need extra school places by 2015. These school places were not created, on top of this the number of places available in primary schools was cut during the years 2000-2009 because of less demand.

Your constant use of the fear creating "uncontrolled immigration" is telling, did you know that "controlled" immigration is larger than the supposed uncontrolled EU immigration, and that the best case scenario is a cut of 100,000 from net migration, this is also unlikely as many of the reasons that non-EU immigrants get admitted to the country would count for EU immigrants too.

Look at the numbers above, does that suggest that children of EU students are the majority of immigration? No it doesn't.

"it is impossible to plan for services effectively if you have no idea what number of children are currently or will in future be entering the country"

But we do know what children are in the country, as the majority are born here. Brexiters can't go on about immigrants using maternity services and then claim we don't know how many are here. The number of children arriving with parents is far, far lower than those who are born here and so make up a relatively small number.

The pressure on services rhetoric is exactly that, rhetoric.

Your posts are carefully crafted to sound reasonable, but are anything but.

[Lottielou7]

MangoMoon - well I suggest you read the thread properly then as that is not what I have done.

[yomellamoHelly]

In our area it's because people can't move up the housing ladder. So you get people having families in what would have traditionally been starter homes / flats. We had 3 children in a 2 bed house. A friend had 3 in a 1 bed flat. It's just economics which has changed the movement of population around here. Plus they're filling in all the gaps which you just know are going to gradually fill up with families rather than young couples / single people.

[MangoMoon]

I have read it, and that is exactly what you've tried to do.

Also, the sneery "fewer" correction further shows your superior attitude to the (apparently) interminably stupid Leave voters.

To answer your original question:
"What do you say to people who blame immigration for the fact school places are in short supply?"

I say:
If that is your experience, then who am I to tell you 'you are wrong! Immigration has net benefit effects to the country as a whole! Your personal experience is irrelevant!'.

Personal experience trumps data & figures every single time when it comes to personal opinion.

[Peregrina]

In the past when there has been a boom in the birthrate, Local Authorities have been able to plan and build new schools, or add classrooms. Now because of anti-LA dogma, LAs can't do that.

Since the Government is so keen on Academies, Free schools and unelected Regional Commissioners, perhaps between them, they should be charged with planning for and implementing the extra school places.

[Fawful]

Personal experience trumps data & figures every single time when it comes to personal opinion.

That's worrying MangoMoon...
I accept that my personal perceptions can be corrected by people with data that contradicts them, & I expect other people to do the same.

[Fawful]

Personal experience trumps data & figures every single time when it comes to personal opinion.

That's worrying MangoMoon...
I accept that my personal perceptions can be corrected by people with data that contradicts them, & I expect other people to do the same.

We are rational as a species, right? We don't rely solely on our impressions.

[chantico]

"So what do you say in response when people come out with this old chestnut."

That the birth rate has increased and there is a demographic bulge, and it believed that this coincides with births occurring to those who arrived in the country in the 00s. Obviously statisticians do study this, including the fecundity of women by various demographic traits.

Large numbers of schools were sold off in the 90s and 00s, despite the change in birth rate (previously falling) being noticeable towards the end of that time. It has been difficult to play 'catch up' with school places in a short period of a few years, when the government hasn't had much money to spend.

Also worth noting that of course the increase in numbers of reception age children is not evenly spread round the country. So if you are in an area where there are generally enough schools to go round and average rates of incomers, then you certainly won't see it as an issue to the same extent as people who live in places such as Peterborough.

Talking about the experiences there is not to 'silence' any other viewpoint. Although it does show up that the demographic headline does not cover what is actually happening, to a different extent in different regions.