What do you say to people who blame immigration for the fact school places are in short supply?

[Lottielou7]

Of the few people I know who voted for Brexit, they are adamant that school places are difficult to get because of immigration. The one who says it the most has 6 children! I can't stand this scapegoating. Personally, I think birth rates have risen generally. My friends and I all mostly have 3 children. I'm an only and as a child of the 80s people had mostly one or two.

So what do you say in response when people come out with this old chestnut.

[Lottielou7]

Tryingtosaveup - oh so because anonymous poster's dog's husband said it, it must be true and was a reason to vote out?

I despair Ffs

[Threepineapples]

I'd point them to the local news headline that a record number of children got their first choice primary this year across our county. Only 3% did not get one of their choices and I assume in that figure you do have to allow for the applications for 3 schools where the child is out of catchment for all.

Our nearest primary went from 1 to 2 class intake this year and my DC' secondary is taking 2 new classes from next year. We also have a new secondary being built by the local academy trust.

I loathe what has been done to education in this country but despite the challenges this area is keeping pace. I'm not sure how much better we should expect it to be? I'm sure it's never been 100%.

59% leave vote - presumably for other reasons than school places.

[smallfox2002]

" Free for all"

Fucks me off to the highest level.

Parents of children pay tax, immigrants are net contributors.

Again and again you get told the real facts, not your bigoted perspectives, that national government decisions have effected far more than immigration.

But no, blame the immigrants, its easier.

Did you know NO children this year were not offered a place in a school in their LEA area? Back to once again 87% of children got their first choice place again.

Free for all.

"Controlled immigration" is higher than "uncontrolled immigration" under the same rules for EU it would be vastly similar.

Sorry. I'm sick of this blame the immigrant argument. Look closer and see why rather than being xenophobic eh.

[SnowBells]

Access to single market = Free movement of people

Is that not easy to understand? The UK needs the EU more than the other way around.

[Tryingtosaveup]

I voted leave and one of the reasons was the high, unplanned immigration. Yes, I applaud Teresa May for wanting to stop the free movement of people.
We cannot afford to keep building more schools and hospitals.
There is, apparently, a school in Nottingham ( a teacher there posted on the education threads) where there is only one child whose first language is English. They cannot afford all the extra support these children need.
We need managed immigration and a proper planned system which addresses shortage occupations, not a free for all.

[hubris]

There is a clear distinction between blaming immigrants and blaming high net immigration.

Ah, the 'just build more' argument from Valentine - lots of new schools and nurseries. Presumably to be build on the magic spare land that is just lying about in this empty country of ours.

The last time a new school was built in the inner city area I used to live in, it was built on the playing field of another primary school. There was simply nowhere else and the decision had to be made. You can't just build a primary new school out on a field somewhere outside the city, it has go near where the demand is.

Another new school had its sports area carved out of public parkland - there was massive public resentment about this because cities have precious little green space as it is.

Perhaps it is you that just doesn't understand that people value their green spaces, their surroundings, their quality of life. They don't want to live like battery chickens in exchange for 0.1% GDP or whatever the hell we're told makes all the overcrowding worthwhile.

[Valentine2]

I think this referendum has made the fault lines so visible across the whole society. This is what the establishment probably wanted? That Leave and Remain public keep fighting and blaming the other side rather than try and find the real culprit together. School places are short because of the action of government. We need immigration and trade with Europe will come with open borders or not at all so governments have o plan this essnrtially. They didn't. But we blame immigrants. this is only going to make us more divided if we keep going like this. We need to understand the trade relationship with EU in general. For that trade we need to let free movement of people across border or EU won't agree. For the free movement we need school places and LOTS of new schools and nurseries! Why is that so hard to understand for such a large number of public is beyond me. Perhaps the quality of education has been declining here and we have indeed become the joke that we used to make of American schools?

[meditrina]

I agree: there have been both acceptances and rejections.

[smallfox2002]

Lots of LEA's have been refused despite demonstrating the need for places.

[meditrina]

Yes, I know that's what the clause means. And it means it's not straightforward, like I said. But it can and does happen. And if there is no backer in the place where LEA wants places, and they can demonstrate the need for places and that they have failed to secure a backer, it happens.

(More school places needed round here - successful school allowed to open a satellite site - didn't have to go near academy policy, and the government has supplied £5bil for schools expansion - do agree that that might not be enough, also that some areas have been considerably more successful in bidding for it that's others).

The calibre of your local council makes an enormous difference to outcomes.

[smallfox2002]

Meditrna: This is the clause that the DofE use to stop many LEA's from building new schools. "to DofEd's satisfaction) that no academy could be found to do so."

LEA's can expand their schools by satellite? Which means finding sites and hiring extra staff etc, which means securing extra funding which need DofE approval.

It isn't impossible to open new schools or satellites, but it is far more difficult and even when all the work is done it isn't guaranteed.

Central government policy IS to blame for school shortages where they exist.

[NoahVale]

there was someone who said that and I pointed out that in my experience, my ds had a russian boy in his nursery and my dd had a turkish girl in her class,
they pick up the language embarrassingly quickly

as for school places, blame the housing crisis

[meditrina]

"the fact that LEAs are no longer allowed to build new schools"

This is not actually a fact.

Now, as agree it's far from straightforward for an LEA to build a new school, but it is permitted when an LEA can show need and can show (to DofEd's satisfaction) that no academy could be found to do so.

LEAs can also expand their schools (including by satellite) which amounts to much the same as a new school.

There are LEAs which do this. It's about local political will and priorities. It's not rig to blame central government for an absolute barrier when there is actually only a conditional and surmountable one.

[BarmySmarmy]

Recent shortage of school places in our borough was caused by the council closing a big primary and a big secondary about 15-20 years ago, and building high density housing on the site...., oh surprise, surprise, all those new families in the housing suddenly started having children......

[BoneyBackJefferson]

Just5minswithDacre

Not shelved, just reworded.

[smallfox2002]

Oh just for now, it'll be brought back in now there are bigger fish to fry.

[Just5minswithDacre]

At least 100% academisation was shelved.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

free schools, another fantastic gove fuck up.

[smallfox2002]

A free school opened down the road from me and took a number of kids from the nearest primary and lowered its new enrolment figures.

Now the initial government cash has run out neither school is getting enough money in to provides the services that they desperately need.

Just another great allocation of resources by the DofE.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

Where I live they are building 3,500+ new houses, the government stopped new schools being built, reduced the amount that schools could spend on expending.

They thought that the parents that they had misinformed about the education system would open free schools, the parents didn't.

Its not rocket science as to why there are not enough school places to go around.

[BarmySmarmy]

OP: "I agree. Immigration does a cause serious strain on our resources, and everyone should go back to where they came from. Good luck getting a GP appointment in the queue behind all the expat pensioners and other Brits when they come rushing back from the costas after we leave the EU, the ones who went to Australia will need plenty of school places, how many Brits are off taking other people's jobs in the Gulf, Azerbaijan, etc? They'll be back, out of work and holding you up in the dole queue...."

[Just5minswithDacre]

So not a big change?

London has changed a lot in the past 20 years but London always has.

[smallfox2002]

"Oh no my area of London has more cars than 20 years ago, completely going along with the trend that since 1997 the number of cars on the road has nearly trebled, not due to immigration or a trebling in population but because of the relatively lowering of cost of owning and operating a car."

#firstworldproblem

[Woodhill]

Down the road Dacre.

[Just5minswithDacre]

Where did you arrive from wood?