Dementia dad and driving

[PopcornPoppingInAPan]

Sorry for long post :-(

My 80 year old father has not been fit enough to drive for some time, in 2022 I reported him to DVLA and his licence was eventually revoked.

Since then he has been diagnosed with vascular dementia caused by two small strokes, not expected to get worse but he is still physically and cognitively unsafe to drive.

My father is unfortunately convinced he is safe to drive, that his licence was revoked due to an “administrative error” (I told him I’d reported him to the DVLA but he seems to have forgotten).

He keeps trying to raise it with medical professionals, wants to write to his MP about how outrageous it is. He’s obsessed with it.

While medical professionals v unlikely to support his application to get licence back their approach is always to kick the can down the road eg, “We’re waiting for further test results and need those before I can consider” or (new GP) “I will have to discuss your medical history with your usual GP.”

I understand this is probably the recommended method, because you often can’t rationalise with people with dementia and it’s better to try to distract them.

The issue is this: we have concerns that my Dad is going to get so fed up he just decides to drive anyway. He had already said “If they catch me it’s only a £1000 fine” and seems to think it’s a risk worth taking. He knows he would not be insured and that it would be illegal but doesn’t seem to care.

I’m getting slightly desperate as to what we can do. Hiding the keys may work once or twice but isn’t a permanent solution. If he does drive then yes, we can call the police, but clearly we really need to stop it getting to that point!

Does anyone have any advice please?

I’m wondering if we push the GP to tell him no, he cannot drive, and to put this in writing. That might make it harder for my dad to maintain his licence was revoked only because of an administrative error. But maybe it won’t.

The only advice I can find is again, try to distract the person but it’s just not sustainable to keep doing this, we need a more permanent approach.

I also wondered about trying to get the GP or adult social services to declare him as lacking in capacity to decide whether he can drive, but what good would that do unless we went down the full deprivation of liberty route and put him in a secure care home. (He is doing stints of respite care in a care home but I don’t think it’s a secure one).

Help, please!

[TwattingDog]

The police might be willing to help. The local PC for the beat team or their PCSO might be willing to come and explain that his licence has been revoked for medical reasons and what that means for him now. Depends on your area and if they have time, but in my area they are clamping down on motoring offences) mostly due to the boy racers who are a nightmare), so this would fit right in.

I would just remove all the car keys from the house and jolly along selling the car as its sitting there going to waste.

The problem may be that if he's not retaining the detail and he's fixating on this issue that nothing will really work and it'll remain an area for obsession.

Have the stroke team not advised you and him at all on this? I'd expect it to be a regular issue for them for all ages.

[ilovebreadsauce]

If he hadn't driven in 2 years , why do you think he will start now?
You need to keep the keys from him if you think he will, because a piece of paper from the doctor doesn't sound like it will do much

[starpatch]

Honestly it sounds like you are pretty on top of this and have done what you can already. DVLA has said he is medically unfit to drive. If you find out he has definite plans to buy a car "I am going to pick it up on tuesday" sort of thing, then it would be worth contacting the police then, I would think they may well think it is worth while to pop round and have a chat with him.

[LadyDanburysHat]

I don't understand the hiding keys not working and agree with a PP who said just remove them permanently from his house.

[willingtolearn]

Don't hide the keys, take the keys and the spare set too. If at all possible get rid of the car altogether.

Every time he mentions it, remind him 'you're not allowed to drive Dad, You're not safe. You do not have a valid licence'

It's not up to the HCPs who will see him only occasionally. It needs to be the people who see and care for him daily.

You all need to be absolutely clear with him - because he will forget day to day why he can't drive - the car being there is not helpful as he sees it and thinks he can drive.

It's the same as taking medicine - if the person can't remember why they're taking it you explain why, every time if necessary - for them it may feel like a new conversation each time.

[Queijo]

Does he have access to a car? If so, can you take it so it’s not sitting on the drive reminding him?

I also agree that maybe speaking to your local police might be useful. I’m sure they’d send out a PCSO or maybe even an officer to really drum into him how illegal it would be.

Another thing I would do if it was my dad would be to write a GP letter on headed paper saying he is not under any circumstance to drive. If you’re just using it to show him then I can’t see many issues with that.

[willingtolearn]

It might be worth buying a wheel lock to put on the car as well so it can't be driven - although this should be unnecessary if you've taken all the keys.

[Megifer]

Just remove the keys from the house. Pc's etc going round won't work.

It's hard believe me.

[PopcornPoppingInAPan]

Thank you for your suggestions, that’s a great idea about asking the police to come and talk to him.

My concern about hiding the keys is that he will likely call the garage and get them to change to locks on the car.

My mum had to do this with her car as she couldn’t find her keys, I was surprised how (relatively) easy it was just to change the whole lock.

So it’s not necessarily a permanent solution, plus there is the issue of him finding my mum’s keys and driving her car.

He had done this already, before his licence was revoked but when we had told him he was unsafe to drive. She thought she had hidden them well enough but he found them and drove off.

[PopcornPoppingInAPan]

Also, if we sold the car I have concerns he’d just buy a new one online!

[TwattingDog]

Remove the car as well then. Bright and breezy. Sell it as a done deal when you talk to him.

"Right Dad, the car needs to be moved off the drive / road / out the garage. Time for it to be sold as you can't drive it any more. Shall we get it listed online now?".

Perhaps it would be best to move it to your house to manage the sale (although if there's no insurance policy in force on that car, you'll not be able to drive it either so have a think about the legalities there).

Don't offer options. Remove the keys, remove the car, get it sold.

[MereDintofPandiculation]

According to this legal firm it’s an unlimited fine if you have no insurance as well as no license. The police can also seize the car.

Can you disable the car, if no-one else is using it? Removing the starter relay is one suggestion.

[Megifer]

Op I honestly cannot stress to you how much someone having a word, or writing a letter to your dad, WILL NOT WORK. (not shouting at you I'm just really pushing the point).

Phone the garage and tell them your dad is no longer insured to drive so they cannot change the locks.

Pp suggestion of steering lock is good. Or failing that get a wheel clamp. Failing that just move the car elsewhere, tell the police what you've done. (I did this, they were very helpful).

Or mum needs to get much better at hiding the key. I can't believe there is absolutely nowhere she can put them.

This is about keeping your dad with you, safe for as long as possible and other road users who have no control over sharing the road with him.

It's fucking horrible, you have my total sympathy but you all need to get really tough and cruel to be kind.

[rwalker]

I’ve been through this it’s horrendous to deal with
people just saying take the keys have no idea how difficult it is to navigate this situation

Disconnect the battery lead but leave him the keys this avoids confrontation and arguments the car simply won’t start

help him with the process no doubt his license will of expired so he need to get a new one
get the form there’s no way he’ll be able to fill it in but then this starts a process
he’ll get letters explaining it copy these and when your explaining why he can’t drive give him the letter
This take the heat out of the situation as they can’t see further then you personally stopping them driving this is coming from official channels

If he does fill the form in they will probably write to his consultant and may offer him a 3 year licence which is conditional of him passing a test ( which he’ll no doubt fail )


best of luck

[Mamaraisedadoughut]

It comes down to either getting the car sold, so it isn't there anymore or as we did, disconnecting the battery so when he tries to start the car whoops, it won't start!
TBH it's unlikely to start anyway if its been sat for 2 years.

Been in the same situation with FIL. Except he actually ran someone over and had about 3 more accidents in a week. We had been telling him and MIL he shouldn't be driving for a while.
It took the embarrassment of him running someone over, and it becoming a big Facebook drama for MIL to listen, and then his specialist was quite forceful that he shouldn't drive anymore.

The thing is, they do seem to get stuck on fighting to continue driving despite being completely unsafe. FIL keeps mentioning that he wants us to write to DVLA so he can drive again because that man stole his licence off him.
It's been somewhat better since DH borrowed his car last week, but now he's telling everyone he's trapped because DH has taken his car.

I empathise with you. Horrible situation.

[willingtolearn]

Who cares for your Dad - is it your mum? Is she finding this difficult generally?

Will he get angry if people remind him he can't drive?

It sounds like he is very capable at some times and in some aspects, but not in others (ie the skills for driving)

I don't think having Police or a GP talk to him will help if he can't retain that memory or conversation.

It will be the individuals caring for him daily that need to manage his behaviour, and this includes keeping him (and the public) safe by ensuring he cannot drive.

So if your mother is caring for him - she needs to ensure that her keys are not accessible to him at any time - if necessary she needs to lock them in a safe that only she knows the code to. Her car may also need a steering lock and again the keys would need to be kept securely.

If she is struggling to manage keeping him safe then it may be that outside care will need to be provided.

This is no different to making sure he doesn't turn a gas oven on, or walk out of the house in unsuitable clothing. It is part of caring for him.

[AnnaMagnani]

The pushing it down the line tactic is actually better than you think.

He keeps raising it as he can't remember the answer last time. So hiding or removing the keys and a white lie 'I don't know where you put them' followed by rapid distraction on to another topic.

Have you got access to his emails? We did quite well with FIL as he didn't drive for so long the battery went flat. He then got a mailshot from the car dealer and went on about buying a new one - so we rapidly got rid of the car and unsubscribed him from 100s of emails.

The emails is worth doing as he will be being sent all sorts of crap and the temptation to from scammers is high.

Worst comes to the worst, he buys a new car - they will want to see his driving licence and he hasn't got one. And you dispose of the keys to the new car.

[PopcornPoppingInAPan]

Thanks @MereDintofPandiculation , perhaps the £1,000 fine was just for driving without insurance.

I feel like we need a combination of most/all of the above suggestions, but that we really do need to push the GP to tell him in no uncertain terms he will never be medically fit to drive and must not drive. And then when we take keys or car itself away, we keep referring back to that. I’m just nervous that this seems to go against the “distraction tactic” official advice and I don’t understand why it can’t be a combination of the two. ie why won’t the medical professionals stop kicking it down the road.

His dementia/stroke diagnosis we got from a leading neurologist at Addenbrokes after we basically begged him to see my dad, but he’s not under ongoing care there. He had a dementia review yesterday with the new GP but I don’t think he’s been referred anywhere else.

[Zoomerang]

We Had a similar situation with DGF. Key to solving it was letting him think he was in control, so we told him that my brother desperately needed a car but couldn’t afford one. Once we’d planted the seed, DGF was happy to give the car away to him.

I think he felt much better having decided for himself to do something generous, rather than being told he was too doddery and having things out of his hands.

[AnnaMagnani]

Depending where he is with his dementia, a chat from the GP may have no impact at all.

I had a long chat with a dementia patient yesterday who told me about a lengthy conspiracy he was clearly very attached to. And all the doctors he saw were apparently fake doctors. I just agreed with him and moved on, it isn't worth upsetting them as it doesn't change the obsessions.

[willingtolearn]

This is not for the GPs to deal with - it would be a waste of their time.

This is for the people caring for him to deal with.

[PopcornPoppingInAPan]

Thanks @willingtolearn yes it’s my mum who cares for him and it’s challenging for her in all sorts of other respects which could be the subject of another very lengthy thread!

I just feel a GP letter would be something else in her amoury when he keeps trying to bring it up. But yes it’s likely he doesn’t retain the information albeit we don’t really know since no Dr will actually tell him he’s not medically fit to drive!

His car is currently in the garage at home but yesterday he called the garage/mechanics and had arranged to get them to collect it on Friday to ensure it’s roadworthy, so sure is he that he will get his licence back!

[warmmfeet]

That sounds really difficult.

Your Dad lacks the capacity to understand the danger involved in him driving. Therefore you are only acting in his best interests by removing the keys, phoning the garage etc to keep him safe.

We actually have a similar situation with my FiL who had his license revoked due to a brain tumour which affected his sight. He has since been diagnosed with vascular dementia. For many years he would say he wants to get his license back and some humoured him but his wife just constantly reminded him it wasn't possible. He's given up / forgotten now.

[Purplecatshopaholic]

We took her keys off her and when that stopped working we eventually sold the car. She was a total danger to herself and others and I am not sorry. I would have been if she had killed herself or someone else.

[willingtolearn]

It is a really tough situation.

Will your mum accept help caring for him? Will he? I think you said that you were using some respite services.

It is really common for one partner to become worn out or unwell because of struggling to manage high care needs, but still wanting to provide that care.

Are you able to have a conversation with your mum about getting her some help?

You may have already done this but this is the link for a care needs assessment: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-care-and-support-guide/help-from-social-services-and-charities/getting-a-needs-assessment/


It's not just your Dad's needs - it's also your Mum's needs as a carer that need to be considered.

Otherwise it tends to reach crisis point before decisions are forced because someone has got hurt/unwell.