Is it really that hard to get a place at a good private school in London if you have been State educated at primary level?

[Aubergines]

We live in West London and intend to send our daughters to the local State primary. It is a good primary, outstanding Ofsted etc.

The State secondary schools around here are pretty terrible so at 11 we hope to get the girls into a private school.

This all seems very sensible to me but several "friends" have raised their eyebrows and suggested I am taking a gamble and may well find that the girls don't get a place at any of the good private secondary schools. THey suggest good private secondaries (e.g. St Pauls, Latymer, Godolphin and Latymer) are incredibly competitive and children at "feeder" private primaries will be at a distinct advantage.

Is this really true? Is there a chance that at age 11 my girls will have no choice but to go to the local State secondary? Can that really happen, that at 11 you have no choice of education even if your parents are willing and able to pay?

Any words of wisdom appreciated.

[Sarajevo1995]

Back to the subject of 'Is it really that hard to get a place at a good private school in London if you have been State educated at primary level?'

If your child is doing really well at his/her primary, and has a solid 5 in the sats exams then they will have a very good shot at getting a place at a good private secondary.

My son went to a state primary in London and got a place at Westminster Under. Granted, he is very bright and was offered St Paul's, Latymer and City of London with a scholarship, but it goes to show that you just don't know how your children will do until they are older. Personally, I'm glad I sent him to a good primary and saved the cash, got a broad experience, and knew what he was capable of before sending him down the private route.

My daughter is doing her 11+ now. She has more choice in terms of state secondaries and is not as academically gifted as her brother, but she is bright and the top of her class and I'm sure she will get offers from good private secondaries. I stress that they are our back up. She'll do just as well at a good state secondary as she would at a private school.

The key in all of this: parent participation. You are your child's best educator.

[Madsometimes]

It is possible to get your child into a private school in London from a state school.

Dd1 has just done it, and we are very pleased with her. She is going to a GDST school, which is selective but not super-selective IYSWIM.

I think the most important thing is to choose the right school for your child. My dd is fairly bright, but not in the top 5-10% academically, so I did not sit her for the super selectives. It would have been a waste of time and money to try for City or St Pauls, plus unwanted trauma for my child.

Perhaps prep schools seem more successful because they manage parents expectations. They nudge parents towards senior schools that would suit a child, whereas state school parents (like me) have to make the decisions on their own.

Secondary school transfer is a very stressful time, and I have sometimes been a little envious of those children at schools that go through to 18. They have not had the worry of the exams, but it has worked out in the end. Now to get used to paying fees...

[MrsGrahamBellForTheSkiSeason]

MadSometimes has made a very interesting point..
The prep schools do indeed guide the parents (even if the parents sometimes believe what they want to believe rather than taking the pre schools' advice) but in the state sector there is no guidance, so it is very difficult to guage your child's comparative ability. Wth our DC, we have had to glean from teachers unguarded remarks eg - 'he is operating at the highest level' (in reception) and 'his problem solving is exceptional - he gets it straight away, and has to explain it the other children' (Y2) and 'he needs a tutor, his maths ability is beyond what we teach here' (Y3)
We test-bedded by trying a couple of very academic schools for 10+, on the basis we would use to calibrate and then try for less academic ones for 11+. In fact, both DC were offered places and scholarships everywhere @ 10+ so we never did the 11+. But trial and error, no advice from the primary school.

[londonkids]

I went to one of those schools you have mentioned. It was very academic but a huge number of girls had eating disorders - I mean practically nearly all did, and in later life I have met people who sisters went to the school or they did in completely different years and they all said the same. I'm all for private schools but having experience going to a well known highly academic private school and a not so well known highly academic one I think I'd pick the less competitive flashy one. Unless your children are incredibly naturally clever and can really handle pressure and furious competition I wouldn't bother with St. Pauls and Godolphin - what use are tons of GCSE's and A levels if you're child has an eating disorder - I was shocked after coming from a boarding school outside London just how many pupils in the school were affected and I've heard this from lots of ex pupils who attended these kind of schools. I think a lot of the coaching is for exam technique - when I went all kids were coached from their private primary schools in the last year to get into private secondary, but I think these schools have got a lot harder to get into than 20 years ago, so you really need to find out who's coaching and from what age from people who are currently doing it now rather than from mums who did years ago.
Also, I do wonder if some other mums might play down how much they really are having their kids coached to make out they aren't quite so neurotic about getting their kids into these kinds of schools.

[londonkids]

I would also be aware that some very wealthy people send their children to schools like St. Pauls and Godolphin. If you are not sending your child to a private primary because you disagree with the idea of paying for education at this age then that's OK, but if you are not sending your child in primary because you can't afford it I would be wary about them really fitting in to a tough competitive environment where girls also compete on hair styles, handbags and clothes in the 6th form, just general lifestyle the higher they move up the school and can be bitchy about these kinds of things. If I only had the money to send a daughter to a secondary private school I would go for a GDST (Girls Day School Trust) Private school where there would probably be a higher number of children in a similar financial background to our family.

[Dozer]

Londonkids, am quite alarmed by the eating disorders thing, is a real worry as a mother of girls.

[londonkids]

Yes, it must be even worse now with all the media images of very thin women. I've discussed this with my friends who went to Godolphin, St. Pauls and Westminster Boys - so many of the girls at these schools looked perfect - and that's what attracted my mother to the school. They were all attractive, thin, extremely confident, clever, had perfect hair, nails, shoes and handbags - I think the perfection of these girls added to them competing on everything including their weight - they all seemed very confident and happy but if you spend a lot of your time with your head down the toilet you can't be that happy inside. Some of them had older sisters who had lost a few years of their lives to eating disorders so their parents pulled the younger ones out of the school but usually sent them to equally very academic competitive schools, but some parents didn't and had 2 girls ill, but they still managed to get great grades and have successful careers - don't know how they did it being hungry all the time - I wouldn't have been able to concentrate with no food! I turned down other schools where the girls didn't look so impressive and perfect - for example they had dyed their own hair for a laugh and it had gone a bit wrong, wore clothes they thought were very trendy for a 16 year old but were actually dreadful, some of them a bit on the chubby side - but still an academic school. I think when I look for secondary schools for my daughters I will definitely look for a few fuller bottoms and girls being less perfect in the hope they won't mind if they eat a meal or get a b grade! If your daughter is going to go to oxford and become a high flying solicitor she'll probably do that from any private or good secondary school.

[BobbyWaring]

There is absolutely no evidence that competition in education improves pupil performance, but there is a lot of evidence that those most able to make and fight for their choices get most benefit from competition.
Parents consistently say they want a good local school for all children, but the government policy is going to deny them this.
It's about time politicians recognised that social inequality is not created by education or other public services, but by divisive economic and fiscal policies. Significant numbers of children from disadvantaged families will only achieve more if we have a more equal society, but the UK is one of the most unequal in the developed world.

[Elibean]

OP, you are probably in the same area of London as us - same local private schools, at least.

We have sent our dds to a good local State Primary, and are very happy with it. They are not old enough for us to be thinking about Secondaries yet, but of course we are anyway (its hard not to, as everyone around us does!) and here's my thoughts, fwiw:

If the dds turn out to be highly academic, which is possible with dd2 though I think not likely with our more creative, free-thinking dd1, they can try for Latymer etc - there are children at our primary who have got into those schools with and without tutoring.

OTOH, the local State secondary is under enormous pressure from parents like ourselves who would like it to be good enough for our children - and it has actually begun that change. Five years from now, it could well be oversubscribed and an excellent choice: schools can turn around in that time, I've seen it happen.

'Feeder' private primaries are meant to prepare children for the selective schools' exams - so in that sense, there is some advantage (if you are set on those secondary schools). For us, the priority is the right 'fit' of school for the dds, and for us as a family, both now and in the future - yes, its a gamble of sorts, but with family support and ongoing thought about 'what next', we're happy with it. Sending dd1 (she's now in Y2) to a private primary that we weren't so keen on just didn't seem worth the gamble the other way, iyswim.

Good luck making choices, its a tough one!

[Elibean]

londonkids, and to hear about the prevalence of eating disorders in the highly competitive schools - though not hugely surprised.

My own experience (admittedly a long time ago) is that friends who went to Marlborough, Down House, Bedales etc etc did just about as well or as badly as friends from the local Comp. In other words, some died of drug addiction, some spiralled in other ways, some became high fliers, and most just did ok.

I shall take your tip and look for round bottomed female students in the dds' future schools, be they private or state

[nlondondad]

My son went to our local state primary, and from there to City of London where he is very happy. Girls at Girls only schools that are selective do seem to tend to be very competitive if let. One of the school governors at our local primary is the retired head of a selective, Girls' grammer who has commented on the need to try and stop the girls from putting too much pressure on themselves.

[umgroup]

my dd got into 2 of the best privates in west london from a state primary, so did others in her class. They were all tutored, not because the state schools aren't good at teaching them but simply because when it comes to the private exams the state schools haven't yet done the curriculum needed to pass those exams.

[Succubi]

I haven't read all the posts so I am sorry if I am going over old ground but in answer to OP's question, it is possible to go from a state school to an independent but it may be more of a struggle.

I am old dolphin (Godolphin) having applied from a state primary but this was many moons ago. I must admit I struggled as against those girls who had been to preps before joining. I was on a full scholarship so things were tough in different ways. What I will say is that if you are thinking about Godolphin it is a great school. I have very fond memories of my time there. The teachers were/are wonderful and I met and made some fabulous friends. I can also say it has opened doors for me when applying for jobs. No one has ever commented on my university education in interviews but I always get questions about Godolphin. If I had had girls it would have been my first choice.

[GirlsInWhiteDresses]

If the talk in the playground of our state primary today is anything to judge by, the super-selective grammars are the ones that are hardest to get into. Plenty of offers to Habs, City etc but the same kids not getting the top state schools.
Maybe it's the prep kids getting into those!

[hammersmithmum]

latymer is definitely private.....£15000 a year I've heard!

[Turniphead1]

The confusion tends to arise about Latymer Upper School (and juniors) - private school in Hammersmith. And The Latymer School - super selective grammar in Edmonton, North London.

[breadandbutterfly]

The state one is Latimer not Latymer.

[Turniphead1]

Breadandbutterfly - no, its not. Google it.

[breadandbutterfly]

Sorry - quite right.

[LittleFrieda]

My sons were offered places at highly selective independent schools, directly from state schools. Without tutoring. They are bright but by no means unusual or brilliant.

I think people who opt for prep schools have to justify their choice to themselves, hence the raised eyebrow. Ignore.

[MaggsC]

Hi! This is a bit off the point but I am coming back to the UK and trying to get my daughter into a prep school. She will be going into year 6 and has to do an exam. Does anyone know what the exams are like?

[sybilwibble]

Maggsc - at this age prep school children sit an exam called the 11+. There are tons of 11+ maths and English workbooks available on Amazon (try Bonds workbooks) to give u a clear idea of the general level expected. Ask the school if they test verbal reasoning and/or non verbal reasoning. If do u can buy workbooks for those too . If the school is selective by academic achievement, that generally means they expect them to perform in the top 10% - 20% of their age group.