Is it really that hard to get a place at a good private school in London if you have been State educated at primary level?

[Aubergines]

We live in West London and intend to send our daughters to the local State primary. It is a good primary, outstanding Ofsted etc.

The State secondary schools around here are pretty terrible so at 11 we hope to get the girls into a private school.

This all seems very sensible to me but several "friends" have raised their eyebrows and suggested I am taking a gamble and may well find that the girls don't get a place at any of the good private secondary schools. THey suggest good private secondaries (e.g. St Pauls, Latymer, Godolphin and Latymer) are incredibly competitive and children at "feeder" private primaries will be at a distinct advantage.

Is this really true? Is there a chance that at age 11 my girls will have no choice but to go to the local State secondary? Can that really happen, that at 11 you have no choice of education even if your parents are willing and able to pay?

Any words of wisdom appreciated.

[BoffinMum]

I did secretly wonder if the fact that I was bf a tiny baby all over the place during the selection day scuppered her chances too! But if a girls' school can't support bf then you have to wonder WTF is going on.

[MmeBlueberry]

You have absolutely no proof on that, bm, and it is a pretty crazy suggestion.

And, you dd may have thrived at Wycombe Abbey, but if they can fill their places with girls that fit their mould, then that's what they will do. If they couldn't do that, then they would simply have gone down the list.

A school that selects on NFER scores will have different pass marks each year according to the cohort that applies. Some years it will be high, and other years much lower. There are many factors that influence who applies, including competition from other schools, change of heads at the prep schools, and economic climate. But they will fill all their spaces if there are enough pupils to go round.

[BoffinMum]

Hey Blueberry, I did say secretly, and I don't think it's crazy at all. We just didn't look like the other families. And social replication is the name of the game here. Which TBH is what is entirely wrong with the independent sector - it is about the protection of privilege and nothing at all to do with academic success any more - it just pretends this is the case. When I was at independent school in the 1970s/1980s it was much more inclusive and I think a lot healthier.

[MmeBlueberry]

If you choose one of the country's top schools, then you are going to struggle to shine, no matter who you are. Competition is rife. They are going to pick and choose those girls who are most likely to thrive in that kind of establishment. While academic scores are the most important, they may have other criteria, especially for borderline cases - such as a track record in sports, drama, music and art.

Most independent schools are very inclusive, especially if they don't automatically fill all their places.

[BoffinMum]

Seriously, this wasn't the case when she applied to WA. She has all that stuff.

[omnishambles]

I dont think thats a crazy suggestion of BM at all - its often about fitting in...

[jackstarbright]

Looking at it from the selective private schools point of view. Their incentive is to avoid offering a place to child who would fail to do well in the school. Missing out on the occassional child who would excel at the school is less damaging. As a result, the selection process might sacrifice picking the ultimate 'best candidates' in favour of ensuring all selected are 'good enough'. So, there will always be examples of children who don't get an offer but go on to outperfom those that do

[Needmoresleep]

My understanding is that the approach used by Wycombe Abbey and some other girls boarding schools is different to the VR and non-VR given at 11+ at the competitive west London days schools and that a wider range of knowledge is needed. I assume then that there is a different decision to be made on whether time at a Prep school is an advantage.

[MmeBlueberry]

I've looked up Wycombe Abbey's website. They do the ISEB CE exams, which can be tricky for state school pupils (the science paper, particularly). But BM's dd was doing GCSE maths in primary school, so she would easily have made up for any missed teaching in science.

[BoffinMum]

She had hardly sat any exams full stop. That was part of the problem.

I think any school that just tries to get particular kinds of pre-packaged pupils that fit in and won't require much 'effort' is barking up the wrong street if it wants to keep hold of its charitable status, in this day and age.

[MmeBlueberry]

It doesn't have anything to do with effort on the school's part.

It is knowing that a student will thrive in the environment they offer. In the case of a full-on academic boarding school, the secure knowledge that their expectations are in line with what the school has to offer. If they are not sure, there are plenty more candidates to pick from.

They are happy to pass up other qualified candidates that can address their individual needs more accurately.

Parents just have to get over that fact, and the one that Wycombe Abbey is still standing and filling their places, and getting students into their first choice universities.

[Xenia]

BM, I think there's just luck in it. My second daughter didn't join her sister at Habs, although she got into North London 2 years later which is even better and it didn't matter in the end (they are both over 18 now) and I did wonder at the time was it because their little brother stuck his tongue out before the interview and he was with me because his nanny was sick that day or because I'd gone without their father with me to the interview or because 3 girl triplets got 3 places but it was probably just luck. They couldn't find a book she couldn't read at 3 so it certainly wasn't academics. Now they're over 18 it seems pretty irrelevant.

(I've never consider boarding schools because I think they cause more damage than any benefit they confer but that's a topic for another thread)

[Needmoresleep]

Wycombe Abbey has a reputation similar to SPGS, just boarding, which may make it quite intense.

The girls we know who went there are very bright, very focussed and perfectly self confident.

Without personal experience I suspect it may not be for everyone, even if they are super bright, and that the school know what they are looking for.

[jackstarbright]

"I think any school that just tries to get particular kinds of pre-packaged pupils that fit in and won't require much 'effort' is barking up the wrong street if it wants to keep hold of its charitable status, in this day and age."

Boffinmum no and yes!

I don't think the charity commission are going to be that bothered by how a private school selects between one full fee paying child and another. However, I do think that where a school is trying to widen it's social mix (with bursaries) it needs to re-evaluate it's selection methods.

[Xenia]

I think Ms Leather has got the new law a bit wrong and there is not going to be too much trouble over the new Act actually in reality so just relax and luckily plenty of parents could cope with VAT on school fees if they had to. If necessary the schools would manage without charitable status. Let's have a nice juicy test case.

[BoffinMum]

Well, I'm with Xenia. I think luck has a lot to do with it at the end of the day (as in the case of Oxbridge admissions as well). To pretend otherwise is deluded, as is all this 'schools/colleges know what they want and which children/students will fit in' etc etc. That's not my experience from working in the private sector and Oxbridge. Quite frequently mistakes are made and IMO it's often really more random than that. Not always, but often.

However I still think social replication rears its head too much in all this as well, considering this is the 21st century.

[BoffinMum]

It will be interesting to see what the Tories do about all this (if they get in, of course). Especially if the Free School Movement starts to grow. Will these schools really be able to compete?

[Xenia]

I was just lokoing at picture post magazine from 1941 which even showed photos of children in a proposed new school serving meals to other children so that children did not witness servants serving them which would make them see class differences whch is interrsting .

Free schools - we'll see. i expect those who are entrepreneurial will make money. I hope mumsnetters can show women can make money and run chains of these thigns rather than just bleat on about how to get jobs as class room assistants on the minimum wage. It could ba business opportunity. There's a man, sadly not a woman, in the Midlands who plans a chain of them. But that's another issue again - if you're taking profit out which virtually no private schools do how will it be? Possibly better.We'll see.

[jackstarbright]

Xenia - I thought the Tories were still unsure about allowing profits from running Free Schools! Strangely it's ok to reward a company for building a school or supplying the stationary - but incentives for giving a child an excellent education are a bit of a taboo!

[BoffinMum]

Ah, there's the rub. Who would seriously want to do this on any kind of scale without a profit motive? In Sweden there's a profit motive.

[jackstarbright]

BoffinMum I think they are pinning their hopes on parents! The author Toby Young is having a go in West London. His plans sound excellent - A 'non selective' grammar school. But you are right - this will all be small scale stuff initially at least!

[Needmoresleep]

"I still think social replication rears its head too much in all this as well"

Why?

Our experience with 2 children in London day schools is different. Only one of my son's class has a parent who spent time at the school, and that was in the sixth form. The ratio in my daughters class would be similar. I would be surprised if even 20% of parents had been through the English private school system.

Ditto actually with the girls we know who went to Wycombe Abbey.

I also dislike those wide ranging statements about private school parents being able to afford VAT on fees, presumably because they are very rich. Particularly in a thread about whether a child can go from a state primary to an independent secondary.

It would be nice if for once the debate was about why the State sector in parts of London (and presumably elsewhere) is now at a level where parents are very reluctant to send their children, rather than focus on parents who are doing their best, and working very hard, so that their children receive an education.

The intense competition for West London independents is in large part because people don't believe that state secondaries will offer a good education. I cannot be the only parent who was shocked at the murder in Victoria last week of a boy from a Fulham school and relieved that my kids are away from that sort of pressure. The fact that around 40% of kids into these schools will have come from state primaries suggests something. And that others will have gone to prep schools earlier because their parents think they will need the preparation.

[Xenia]

If you're in inner London you cannot by house price segregate your children from the chidlren of the poor if you use the state system as most people do around a lot of the rest of the country. Therefore people like Mr Young want to do it by another means because they picked careers which are so low paid they cannot afford school fees.

Choice of education has always been one of the British strengths, from Montessori to Steiner, Summer Hill to Gordonstoun, comp, grammar, technical college, academies, religious etc I wouldn't like too much sameness but we certainly need to make huge cut backs and it looks like we're going to have teachers on strike etc whoever gets in. Will take me back to my childhood at this rate.

[MadameSin]

As a minority of children are educated privately, wouldn't it be obvious that the majority entering private secondary schools come from the state system? I know this to be true of some independent boys schools such as Hampton, where around 75% come from state schools at both 11&13+.

[SofaQueen]

Yes and no MadameSin. Yes, a majority of children in general are state educated, but in some boroughs of London, a huge percentage are privately educated (although I don't know what the breakdown is by level). In a couple, it is actually the majority.