International Bac

[margotfonteyn]

I see some parents are up in arms because their school brought in the IB and now the pupils haven't done v well and haven't got into their top two university choices. Is this because it is harder than A levels, and the school hasn't, yet, worked out how to get the pupils up to the top grade? Or it is much easier to get 3 As at A level than it is to get the top grade in the IB? Thus proving that some pupils from some schools aren't actually brilliant but have just been taught to pass the exams up to an A grade (my DCs included!)

Personally, I think it would be a good thing to bring it in to the education system, state and private, as it would possibly sort the 'men from the boys' in the plethora of A grades that are given out.

[hippipotamiHasLost54lbs]

I did the international baccalaureate 19 years ago.

I find it provides a much better and more rounded eduation as maths and english have to be studied until the student is 18.

My niece is going to A-level college in Sept to study maths, biology, chemistry and german. Very good, and I am proud of her, but I don't understand why she (and anyone else) is allowed to drop english. Surely this is what leads to the dreadful spelling errors we see in magazines, journals, teacher reports etc.
I find it odd (well it is odd compared to my European education) that children (because they still are children really) are allowed to pick and choose subjects at such a young age and thus really limit what they learn.

[Ponders]

I don't think studying English from 16 to 18 would make any difference to students' spelling & punctuation; that needs to be drummed into them at a much earlier age (like times tables) - by 16 the bad habits are pretty much ingrained.

My 16-yr-old, who has a huge vocabulary & writes pretty well (apart from being rubbish at paragraphing, which was not drummed into him either) still confuses eg there & their. He will be dropping English

I do agree with Anna that English & maths should continue to be studied after 16 (but they should be better taught at younger ages too).

[thedolly]

Surely IB maths can't be as comprehensive as A level Maths. Universities are already struggling to bring science undergrads up to speed with their maths - I don't see how IB would improve on this.

[Ponders]

The IB includes 6 subjects, 3 at higher level & 3 at standard - I imagine higher level maths would be close to A-Level standard.

Of course another difference with the IB is that it's not modular - there are no exams at the end of Y12 so no resits, it's all or nothing at the end of Y13 like the old A-Levels, which may also account for some of those results being lower than expected.

[Ponders]

Higher Level syllabus - how does it compare?

[margotfonteyn]

Exactly Ponders, so pupils can't keep re-taking modules until it's an A.

I would imagine most of the pupils got the results they deserved in the IB (as would the pupils who opted to take A levels instead, and got 3 As).

However, if other pupils who are getting straight As in their A levels are getting the places at university over those with the more 'realistic' grades at IB, it's doing no-one any favours really.

It looks as though UCAS has misinterpreted the equivalent IB score/A level scores.

[PortAndLemon]

Am I missing it, or is there no Applied Maths in that Higher Level syllabus (if so I love the IB already ). Although I suppose that area could be covered in Physics instead; there was always IIRC a reasonable overlap even at A-level between the Mathsy bits of Physics and the Physicsy bits of Maths.

[hippipotamiHasLost54lbs]

I think Applied Maths and Mathematical Knowledge (which is what I took, or was it called Mathematical Studies?) are classed as 'subsidiary level' subjects.

I took Dutch, German, Economics at higher level and English, Maths, Biology at subsid. level.
Would have loved to have done history or geography but was not able to as I chose a second language (Dutch)

In addition to the above you also still have PE, RE and a class called Theory of Knowledge (I cannot really remember what that was about)
And you have to write a either 1000 or 2000 (can't remember it is a traumatic memory I have wiped from my braincells) word dissertation on a certain subject. (I wrote mine in German about the environment)

So full IB is not easy to get. But at my school you did not have to do full IB - you could pick and choose subjects just like with GCSE's and A levels I suppose.

[LIZS]

That's intersting . What the Times article didn't say was which subjects at what level the students had chosen within IB. Perhaps the reason they had to achieve apparently higher scores than A level candidates was down to picking some less relevant ones to the degree they applied for. Therefore the Universities were looking for a generally higher attainment as an indication of their aptitude to learn.

[BonsoirAnna]

"Surely IB maths can't be as comprehensive as A level Maths."

The syllabus is different.

However, my understanding is that the demands of A-level mathematics are low when compared with other European school leaving diplomas.

The "External Evaluation of the European Baccalaureate" (University of Cambridge External Examinations, January 2009) comparees mathematics at A-level, EB, IB, Irish Advanced Leaving Certificate, Swedish National Standards and German Abitur level and is very interesting on this topic.

[BonsoirAnna]

Standards of modern languages, especially at the Higher Level, are also very high in the IB (higher than at A-level). This is to the advantage of the many pupils who take the IB in international schools, and to the disadvantage of less privileged pupils in maintained schools who will probably have far less access to foreign languages.

[TEJQ]

I think its also relevant to point out as Duchesse has that some admissions depts ARE blinkered about 'A' levels.

I applied to Manc Uni to do their degree in Children's Nursing and got a flat rejection without interview. Their response to my enquiry why? That I didn't have 'A' levels at BBC. The qualifications I do have they do not consider to be equivalent of 'A' levels period.

What qualies did I apply with? Two and a half years self-directed study with OU, and 210 points towards the 360 needed for an Hons. Degree in Health & Social Care. Added to that 20 years experience as a parent, 10 as a registered childminder working for social services with SEN kids and families and children on the child protection register, 8 years as a foster carer caring for children from 0-12. including one with leukaemia needing chemotherapy and a bone marrow transplant.

It seems that to some uni's only people who fit into their sausage machine are wanted. Fortunately Manc was my second choice uni and my first choice accepted me no probs.

[snorkle]

HL IB maths is considered harder than maths A level but easier than further maths A level in terms of content. It has quite a broad syllabus (more than 6 A level modules worth) but mostly the questions are fairly straightforward (mostly around AS standard and not harder than A level standard, I'm told). But a big difference is having to take all the exams at the end of the course with no possibility of retakes and, of course, doing a wider range of other stuff at the same time.

It is much rarer (& so presumably harder) to get a '7' (top mark) in HL maths than an A at A level maths, so it seems likely that the 'grade boundaries' are stiffer for IB.

There is a maths option in IB that is harder than further maths A level, but very few people do it.

Is HL maths considered a 'harder' option than HL in other subjects for IB do you know Anna?

[thedolly]

That makes for interesting reading Anna (all 155 pages )

Lower demands does not mean low.

The demand is similar for probability and stats('softer' option in A level maths) in EB and A level . Notably there is less of an emphasis on Mechanics ('harder' option in A level maths) in EB than at A level. Yet overall the level of demand is higher in EB. This must only be true if Pure and Stats options are chosen at A level - right? With the opposite true if Mechanics and Stats chosen? I'm confused.

[BonsoirAnna]

snorkle - as I said earlier, HL Modern Languages are harder at IB than A-level (and I read a very interesting document comparing modern language school leaving diplomas to the European Common Frame of Reference to Languages recently and cannot find it again, but will post a link if I do). I know that children who do not have heavy-duty exposure to a second language don't often opt to do a HL modern language at IB.

[BonsoirAnna]

thedolly - except that the general level of mathematics and physics in UK schools is a recognised cause for concern, and the UK is producing far too few engineering graduates relative to other developed countries, which is not good at all for our long term economic development.

[snorkle]

thedolly, 4 of the 6 modules needed for A level have to be pure maths (no choice). The remaining two modules can be stats, mechanics or 'decision' maths or any combination thereof. (stats 1 and decision 1 would arguably be the easiest combination, mechanics 1 and 2 arguably one of the harder options), but because of the 4 core modules and the fact that different people find different areas of maths easy there isn't a huge difference whatever two extra modules are chosen.

IB has a higher demand because the total you need to learn is much more than the 6 modules worth needed for A level - probably around 8 or 9 modules worth of maths, including topics that are not available on the A level syllabus (though the questions asked are not too tricky).

[thedolly]

I love mechanics.

Just out of interest, what additional topics are there in the IB?

[Ponders]

This is a summary from one college:

You choose six subjects in the IB Programme
Three at Higher Level (approximately equal to A Level) and three at Standard Level. You must study one subject from each of the following groups:

English: World Literature
Foreign Languages: Choose either French, German, Spanish or Spanish (ab initio)
Humanities: Choose one subject from: Economics, Geography, History or Psychology
Sciences: Choose either Biology, Chemistry, Environmental Systems or Physics
Mathematics: Choose either the Higher or Standard Course or Mathematical Studies (for non specialists)
Choose either Art or Music or one other subject from Biology or Physics (for those wishing to take two sciences) or French (for those wishing to take two post GCSE languages) or History (for those wishing to take two humanities)

My son has the option to do IB in Sept but
a) his college doesn't offer Economics or Politics (which he really wants to do) and
b) he doesn't like the Physics syllabus
(and c) he doesn't particularly want to continue with maths or English )

so he is probably going to do 4 A levels instead (Politics, History, Economics, French) which is a shame as the extra bits of the IB would be brilliant for him:

The IB Diploma programme also offers special features in addition to your chosen studies
You will study Theory of Knowledge (ToK) which helps you develop your skills of rational argument and stimulate critical reflection upon the knowledge and experience you have gained both in your studies and generally in your life.
You will also produce an Extended Essay which offers the opportunity to investigate a topic of special interest in greater depth. The Extended Essay is seen by universities as a great strength of the IB Diploma because it introduces the kind of independent research and writing skills expected at universities.
Creativity, Action, Service (CAS) is an important part of the Diploma curriculum, which recognises the importance of personal development outside of academic work. Credit is given for skills, talents and participation in activities such as sport, theatre, community service and voluntary work.

However, it is the first IB year at the college he is going to, so having read the coverage of the "guinea pigs" in the first post I'm thinking he may still be better off doing A Levels (& having more spare time to pursue other interests, which he probably wouldn't have doing IB as it is pretty full-on by all accounts)

[Judy1234]

This is what my daughter's old school says about it (although she left just before it came in and I think it's still a choice - you can do IB or A levels). But I loved giving up subjects when I was 15 and went into the sixth form. I had a very thorough grounding in the subjects I had been doing until then and it was no loss to give them up.

"The IB at North London Collegiate School

North London Collegiate School is at the forefront of IB education in the UK, and one of the very highest achieving IB schools worldwide. Over the past three years we have consistently achieved the highest average IB score of any school in the UK.

We were the first major independent girls? school to offer our students the opportunity to take the IB Diploma, and we are the only school in the UK to have consistently had an average IB score in excess of 40 points - comfortably into the zone of marks typically reserved for Oxbridge admission.

Over the past three years our average IB score has been 42 points and ten of our students have achieved ?perfect scores? of 45 points - a feat achieved by fewer than 100 students in the world each year.



Over the past two years our average IB score has been 42 points and six of our students have achieved ?perfect scores? of 45 points ? a feat achieved by less than 100 students in the world each year.

"

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[Builde]

I would suggest to any parents looking at the IB to look at University entrance requirements. (go on their websites)

For example, if you want to read Engineering at Cambridge, Cambridge is only interested in the maths, physics and chemistry elements of the IB. Therefore, working hard at the other subjects is a bit of a waste of time.

Plus, if University teaching is based on the assumption that most students have done A-levels. (cos that's also what most south-east asian students do too) then you might struggle if you've done IB.

[mathanxiety]

Seems like the school just dropped the ball. UK universities admit students from all around the world, and are capable of analyzing all sorts of educational attainments. Plus, the IB is taught in the US too, and US universities have caught on and learned how to scrutinize the grades. I can't believe UK universities are so far behind the US. Maybe it's just institutional xenophobia and anti-frogism?

[vinblanc]

UCAS tariffs are very favourable towards the IB. If you school has not done well in getting these pupils into their first choice places, then there should be questions about the implementation and teaching of the course.