Out of interest is there anyone else who thinks that schools do things that should be left to parents?

[hurricane]

Do you object to the following being carried out by appropriate professionals in schools (assuming you are kept informed of these things taking place and results of any tests etc)?

1.) vaccinations (like BCG)
2.) eye tests/ dental checks
3.) PSHE
4.) sex education
5.) cooking classes/ healthy eating
6.) PE

If yes, why?

[AuntyThesis]

that was me custy - have to say that in case some sad fuck reports me.

[hurricane]

TBH I fail to see how knowing that a grapefruit is healthier than a chocolate bar is any less valuable knowledge (and arguably more) than knowing about Pythagoras. I think it's a school's job to educate children about all aspects of life from sex and healthy eating to photosynthesis and apostophes. Just because I might teach some of these things at home AS WELL doesn't make it any less important to teach them at school. Yes, a good parent should and would teach kids the things you mentioned. But not all parents are good. And no amount of investing or parenting is going to make them so. And just because I do this stuff at home does'nt mean I have a problem with it being done at school too. Why would I? If you do why don't you opt out and home educate?

[bookwormmum]

from how my dd talks her school draws an invisible line between 'healthy' and 'unhealthy' foods . nutrition is a complex subject agreed but they do seem to take a very simplistic approach to it.

and a grapefruit is not necessarily healthier than a chocolate bar - you have to look at the whole diet in context. no iron content in a grapefruit .

[hurricane]

It's probably true that some schools take a too simplistic approach to food but it's better than just ignoring the issue whilst the obesity crisis just worsens.

[NKF]

I don't mind schools doing any of those things.

[platesmasher]

i haven't read the whole thread here and it looked to be taking a fairly serious direction so apologies if i speak out of turn but.....i wanted to make pancakes with DS this afternoon, but he already did it at nursery. poo. i wanted to do it and be hero worshipped.

[DITDOT]

I teach Food in a secondary school and find that students know the difference between healthy and unhealthy food on the whole although they have often 'picked'this up from primary school. This is not to say that they have not had some guidance at home. However as a food teacher there are certain things that you have to teach and this includes nutrition and healthy and unhealthy foods. Yes I would love to teach practical cookery and prepare proper meals but in 45 minutes and with the government breathing down our necks with the national curriculum it is difficult (compulsory cooking is not until early next decade!). Most schools will touch on healthy eating but I certainly encourage HEALTHIER EATING where students look at how a yummy cake!! can be made just that bit healthier. How can abolognese have a little less fat in it.
We find that parents are busier now and don't have the time to educate their children fully in healthier eating and this is why I think we compliment parental teaching.
I have students who eat nothing but fried chips, value burgers and fish fingers because there is little parental influence and for these children Food lessons including healthier eating are essential.
I have 2 dd's and on the subject of healthy eating do not mind in the slightest that they study it at school, in fact I think it reiterates important knowledge and understanding.

[bookwormmum]

platesmasher - my dd will have had pancakes at schoo, more with my parents and probably another one at Brownies (they let them heat up ready-made pancakes and decorate them).

she won't want pancakes for another year after today

[AuntyThesis]

i cant home ed hurricane as i have a full time job- which i dont do just.... 'cos i am a bit bored with my lavish lifestyle.

we have different views.

you think its ok for schools to teach things that parents shoudl becuase no amount of classes will help some people.

same can be said of education - what a defetist attitude - and a paternal one " them there peasants should get parented from the schools system doncha know , acos they ar the root of bad society."

[AuntyThesis]

" have students who eat nothing but fried chips, value burgers and fish fingers because there is little parental influence and for these children Food lessons including healthier eating are essential."

i am not saying that healthy eating is a bad subject.

i am advocating that parents be taught this and other things through parenting classes. I believe that you can teach and hope these kids can make a healthy meal - but whilst mum is stil cooking chips it isnt going to make much difference

[hurricane]

Oh for God's sake. If you are a single parent with learning difficulties and a drug habit you may well find that getting your kid vaccinated is not top of your list of priorities. I'm not disagreeing with you that the Govt needs to continue to investing in parenting and more needs to be done to support all parents (though as I've said there's never been more investment and I'm not just talking about initiatives like Sure Start I'm talking about things like increased nursery education for ALL parents etc etc) but to suggest that getting vaccinations and PSHE and healthy eating etc etc OUT of schools is hardly going to be helpful to parents like my example. There will always be parents with learning difficulties etc etc no matter how much money the Govt sticks into classes.

But also I think that sex education, PSHE, cooking etc etc is still important in school even where parents DO do these things in school. As I said although I'm an English teacher I need the messages about reading etc to be reinforced in school for my dcs - the teachers have expertise in dealing with younger children that I don't have even though I know that I'm better qualified than my dcs' English teachers. I also want my dcs to be influenced by seeing and hearing their peers with reading as with the BCG as with sex education. I don't feel that I should or want to have total control over these things in my dcs' life. In fact I welcome the fact that they will hear others' opinions and have other experiences from the ones they get from me.

And the fact that my dcs read in school and swim at school doesn't mean I'm going to stop doing these things at home with my kids. The argument that because school does some things parents will give up on parenting is just stupid.

Finally to get some perspective, it's my understanding that the BCG is given just ONCE in secondary school (and there's the tester thingy beforehand). Then maybe they will introduce the HPV vaccine (hooray!). We are therefore talking about no more than 1 hr of missed education through vaccination during the WHOLE time that kids are in secondary school. As you've said most responsible parents (but not all therefore leaving us all vulnerable and not just these kids) would get their kids vaccinated anyway (at greater expense to the taxpayer etc etc and incovnenticne and greater disruption to their and others kids education).

Similarly PSHE is 1 hr a week max. Cooking might be 1 hour a week. Yet kids are in school from 8.30-3.30 roughly so worrying that this stuff is getting in the way of 'real' education (and I argue that this stuff is part of read education anyway) is again just stupid.

[CaptainUnderpants]

Have no objections to any on that list .

I can see why people may object to vaccinations , and sex education but why on earth object to the others ?

Sopme childrenb take more notice of what their teachers say than parents and what they teach at school backs up what we are trying to teach our children at home and vice versa .

I was given vaccinatioins at school , I was taught cooking at school , I did PE at school , PSHE wasn't the thing then , but whay on earth shouldn't children be taught these things .

[CaptainCod]

religion

[Reallytired]

Some kids are truely vile. Clearly their parents have failed to teach them ANY moral values.

My son has stopped wearing his hearing aids because of bullying. There were a group of nasty boys who were making pathetic attempts at pretending to sign and silly noises at my poor son. Its no wonder he is refusing point blank to wear his hearing aids at school.

I think that these boys definately need intensive PHSCE lessons

[hurricane]

' am advocating that parents be taught this and other things through parenting classes. I believe that you can teach and hope these kids can make a healthy meal - but whilst mum is stil cooking chips it isnt going to make much difference'

Erm, once again Aunty, they ARE taught these things. Existing parents are taught about healthy eating and cooking etc in ante-natal and post-natal classes, by Health Visitors at Sure Start centers in heathy eating and cooking lessons at FE college etc etc.

And, Aunty the point of teaching cooking and PSHE in SCHOOLS to kids when education is compulsory is that amazingly enough our kids will be tomorrow's parents. What is the point of waiting until they are parents when they're a ready and much more receptive and less busy audience at school? Again this just shows the holes in your arguments. You are IN FAVOUR of compulsory parenting classes (I'd like to see you try and force new parents into classes!) but AGAINST classes to kids about cooking, healthy eating, contraception, parental responsibility (these last part of many PSHE lessons alongside First Aid and we had specialists in deaf awarness come into our PSHE in response to previous post in Yr 7 when I was at school and all of which go towards helping make people good parents)when kids are already in compulsory education. Duh!

[hurricane]

In fact, since we have the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe the parenting lessons a lot of mothers get ARE the lessons they get in school!

[Saggarmakersbottomknocker]

BCG not given at secondary anymore. So even less time missed

[AuntyThesis]

oh for gods sake...not required.

if you are a single parent with a drug habit perhaps you need some specialist support - rather than mass pulp parenting through an existing institution - i guess the way it is saves money.

"..And the fact that my dcs read in school and swim at school doesn't mean I'm going to stop doing these things at home with my kids. The argument that because school does some things parents will give up on parenting is just stupid"

[OrmIrian]

No!

What I object to is the number of things that the school leaves up to the parents. Why can't school they feed them, clean their teeth and make sure they get to bed on time. It's outrageous! Don't they know that parents have other things to do with their time.

[AuntyThesis]

"In fact, since we have the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe the parenting lessons a lot of mothers get ARE the lessons they get in school! "

i am at this point astounded that as a self reported well educated person you cannot see that the primary care giver has the most influence.

I Would argue that if parents know how to communicate with their children regarding sex education that these statistics would differ enormously.

again i would like to point out that it is not sex ed that i am against

my argument is that the school should compliment the parent.

off to brave the big one

[AuntyThesis]

tomorrows parents - have answered this argument before

mucha as my post below - parents are biggest influence - if your parents dont give a shit and are crap then you have to be one determined person to pull yourself out of that shit hole. some do - many dont

and you KEEP mentioning sure start

arrrrrrggggghhhhhhh - sure start is for eeconomically deprived communities

in non economically deprived communities - it may well serve you well to have the school doing these things you havent got time for - but "i havent got time" is a shit argument

i can say shit cos i never purported to be a teacher

[hurricane]

Parents DO take the primary role. They still DO parent. Nothing a school does or doesn't will change that. I really wonder why you feel so threatened and feel that the role of parents is threatened by what happens in schools. And your decisions are fairly arbitrary - it's ok for teachers to read to kids presumably but not to teach them how to cook spag bol? It's ok for teachers to teach photosynthesis and reproduction but not how condoms are used? It's ok for teachers to supervise school dinners and play in the playground but not to focus on how to manage conflict in PSHE?) The idea that parents (who are they? Where are they? What kind of parent would honestly think, 'Oh my child is being vaccinated at school today and then is having a swimming lesson this must mean that I never have to take my child swimming or consider take them to an optician) are going to stop parenting or abdicate all or any of their responsibilities because schools administer the odd vaccination and teach cooking and PSHE is STUPID. I use the word because there's no other to describe it. Although you've quoted me you've not actually responded to the quotations.

I don't remember saying anything about nursery replacements.

And you've still not squared the fact that you are in favour of compulsory parenting classes for people who have already become parents already presumably (oh what a lovely fantasy world you live in if you really think this will make all parents suddenly able and willing to look after the health of their children and talk about sex etc etc better than professionals who have had years of training and experience in these things) but against teaching these sorts of skills in school to parents to be (who knows how many school children will already be pregnant). Bizarre.

[hurricane]

There's no pleasing you is there Aunty. You say you want parenting classes. I say they already exist. I give Sure Start as ONE example of ways in which the Govt is investing in parenting and supporting parents. I ALSO said that you can get free parenting classes anywhere. You can also get healthy eating/ cooking classes at any FE college (free at Sure Start if you are deprived, discounted at an FE college and payable if you want to). Also Health Visitors, FREE ante-natal and post-natal(in many areas which cover weaning and healthy eating) classes. Loads and loads of information on parening healthy eating, contraception etc etc is given free to pregnant women. This stuff is already available free to ANYONE who wants or needs it. If you want this stuff to be made compulsory you have to introduce it through schools where kids are already in compulosry education (and guess what it is in most schools through PSHE, sex ed etc which you object to). You have a very odd concept of school. I see it is as educating the whole child. Not as JUST random bits of knowledge that tehy'll probably never use again.

[Rantsalot]

I have no problem with the school doing these things and I believe that parents have an obligation to concern themselves with them too.Unfortunately for some children not all parents do, so that is where having the school step in (the only other stable element in many young lives) is beneficial

I think that the more information that children get the better. If children of very involved parents get lots of information from their families as well as the school, then that is a good thing, and at least children whose family life is more difficult are being looked after somewhere -even if it is not the ideal.

Have not read any posts other than the OP btw.

[AuntyThesis]

it's ok for teachers to read to kids presumably but not to teach them how to cook spag bol?

Teachers have a specialist knowledge.

as part of my job i have often had to walk into a room of adults and train them - this in itself requires a particular skill

i do not have a PGCE, i am certainly not - through experience, able to teach 3 children and help them through their homework - in the same patient manner which a teacher does

becuase teachers have a skill i dont

all i am saying is that there are things that dont require a degree, pgce and behavioural knowledge when it comes to your own child. spag bol a good example.

taking about sex - how to communicate with your child - great example.

creating an overarching culture within society where we as parents make the time to go for a walk or have the knowledge regarding healthy eating

i wouldnt say that there "is no pleasing me"

i would say that the current interventions that you mention, have limited impact. and i would say that i think that there is a different approach.