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Education

OMG. Pupil rapes teacher!

44 replies

Hulababy · 13/09/2004 12:06

Here on BBC

I know behaviour and discipline is a real issue in schools now, and that many many teachers are either physically or verbally abused daily. But this?

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hmb · 13/09/2004 17:52

Wish my bottom set year 9 thought the same

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aloha · 13/09/2004 18:18

Hmb, do you think the sort of behaviour you describe is 'catching' - ie that children who would otherwise be fine and do well ape their badly behaved peers and stop working and start acting like them?

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coddychops · 13/09/2004 18:20

agree re the unrealistic expectations HMB
I found it soul detroying not to be able to explaint to Darren G, t who couldnt read, that he wouldnt be a "lawyerer"(sic)- yet if you do say seomthing they accuse you of denting kids' aspirations.

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coddychops · 13/09/2004 18:23

I would also like to draw a ttention to the lack of respect parents have for teachers - even the mners who are always calling the shots about how unreasonable school is and how they can take them on holiday whenever they like. yes it not just the poorest parents

ITs that attitude that has changed IMO
can I draw your attention to this
impact on parental involvemnet on kids attainment that i posted about earlier

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hmb · 13/09/2004 18:32

Agree 100% coddychops. Had to explain to a very nice Mum that no, X wasn't going to be able to do Biology at A level as he was predicted an F at GCSE and wouldn't work unless I stood behind him every minute of the lesson. Sigh.

That said we are not helping things by not being honest with kids and their parents when it comes to attainment. It is a great thing to be positive, I agree with that. But you end up with the situation where an 11 year old, NT boy expects praise for spending 10 minutes when he should have been working cutting out a wavy line. FFS, y1 kids can do that!

Parental involvement is the absolute key, no question. The rare child can do it without, but normaly a kid is sunk if the parents don't/can't care.

Can they 'catch' laddishness etc? Yes, in spades. That is why key kids need to be withdrawn from the classroom and sorted. They can be poison.

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Hulababy · 13/09/2004 19:24

Have to dsay that agree with pretty much all you say here HMB - just scanned through. You have some great ideas about it all too. Just wish someone higher up the eduation chain would take it all more seriously and come up with some.

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nikkim · 13/09/2004 19:34

I think it is important to remember that most kids are pleasant law abiding citizens. I have taught in some of the tough schools referred to in this string. I was sexually asssaulted by a pupil in my first year of teaching and yes his behaviour was wrong and inexcusable ( he was excluded) but I was also a young naive teacher who perhaps put herslef in an unwise situation.

But back to the point after the incident I was very nervous about going back to teach as although we tried to keep the incident away from the children it inevitably got out. Every pupil was shocked and outraged at the boys behaviour and their commendable reaction and support helped to keep me in a job that I loved. It is all too easy to focus on the "bad" children and forget that most of them are not like that.

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hmb · 13/09/2004 19:41

Agree that most kids are great, and I love my job. The trouble is (as you know) that you spend a disproportionate amount of time with the difficult kids. It must have been awful for you, I hope that you got all the help that you needed

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nikkim · 13/09/2004 19:47

I ma not disagreeing with hmb however and despute having a gentle manner in the classroom I do beleive in discipline and agree that we are not doing any children any favours by allowing them to grow up obnoxious and spoilt and at times just unpleasant. I was listening to someone talking on This Morning and an agony Aunt was saying that the prime purpose of parenting is to ensure that your children grow up happy. But if children are to grow up happy they need to be liked and spoilt brats generally don't have many friends.

i was a year eleven form tutor in my last school and many of our pupils were sacked from work experience as they had behaved in the real world the way their teachers and parents allowed them to. They were turning up late, always on their mobile phones, swearing and being generally obnoxious,as hmb said we are not doing anyone any favours by allowing them to act in such a way

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pixiefish · 13/09/2004 19:48

I've started back last monday after 2 terms off on maternity leave- in a fairly buoyant happy mood and boy have i been bought down to earth with a bang... year 7 were lippy- a good class at that... year 10 are horrendous and the 6th form don't show much sense. my low ability yr 11 class is the only one cheering me up and thats only cos ive taught them since year 8... theyre horrible for othrs.

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nikkim · 13/09/2004 19:56

I did get help although I think it should never had happened I was a young, naive idealistic teacher given classes that I just couldn't handle and the consequences both for my self and the kids was tragic. What was even worse was that I had become so accustomed to bad behaviour that I almost didn't report the incident, it was only when I went to the head of department to say this happened and I don't know what to do that I realised what a serious situation I had gotten into to.

The problem with too many schools, particularly in inner cities is that they are full of young teachers out of their depth. Sadly this leads to poor discipline and many of these teachers leaving the profession.

I agree that we do spend too much time on naughty kids but many schools are trying to rectify this, my last post was in an assistant head of year role and we worked hard on focussing and rewarding good behaviour and attainment. This included letters and phone calls home, cerytificates and trips. To cheer myself up on a friday, as I taught botom set year nine all day, I used to make my lovely phone calls. I would phone a parent from each class to tell them how well their son or daughter was doing. Many parents used to love this as all too often a teacher gets in contact when something goes wrong but not right.

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hmb · 13/09/2004 19:58

Dare to dicipline? And the real meaning of the word, 'to lead out'.

If these kids can't integrate and have no marketable skills then what lies ahead of them? Too awful to contemplate. Some of them need a quick dose of reality to shake them up.

I'm lucky this year I only have two awful classes on in Y9 and one in Y8.

It is never the ability that is the issue, only ever the attitude.

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hmb · 13/09/2004 20:02

We also try to contact with good news, and it pays dividends.

I think that it was awful that you were left with such classes without enough support. I would have been terrified to teach when I was younger, I would have been totaly unprepared. I went into teaching after I had my kids, so I am the same age as their parents and I think that this helps a bit......not to say there aren't exceptional youger teachers, I just wouldn't have been one of them.

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hmb · 13/09/2004 20:59

Just as an update the teacher was in her second day of teaching.

Poor, poor woman.

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suedonim · 13/09/2004 21:29

I saw this article about gangsta rap culture today and think it's so sad that so many youngsters are throwing their lives away. It's weird that attitudes to education vary so much around the world. Dd2's teacher went to Ghana to teach this summer and the children out there, who have less than nothing - not even a roof on their classroom - are desperate to learn. Even when they have no paper or pencil, because their parents can't afford it, they still attend classes to learn what they can.

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Branster · 13/09/2004 22:10

I have to agree with all of you here, especially with suedonim's last message.

I happen to have been educated in a different country. There are many other countries with very similar education systems.
Although this kind of tragedy can easily happen anywhere in the world, especially if the youngster in question has such tendencies he'll do such or other things to someone else at some point in his life.

Rude children or teenagers are found all over the world and bad behaviour occurs everywhere. However, I do think that where and when I was in school all of us pupils were incredibly respectful towards teachers and quite a lot of them were role models for most of us. A harder life makes you appreciate what you get for free and realise what you can achieve by studying (after all , you only need to sit at a desk, do a bit of writing and thinking, there's no physical labour involved and in the end you'll have a fantastic job and better yourself through your own consistent effort).

By speaking to a lot of British people, it appears that the education system has changed a lot in the last years/generations. That is one point -debatable goals and examinations, cataloguing everything and labelling even very young children according to their so-called abilities etc. IMO a growing child should be exposed to a great choice of subjects and we need to bear in mind they can't really make up their mind on what they want to do with their life, or realise what they're good at or talented at until probably 11-13 years old. But they need a lot of exposure, encouragement and made to work hard. Why do they need to be filtered through so many levels??. BUT kids are rewarded for everything and not for much work really. And there's always the very clear message that you can have as many goes as you want until you achieve the result you want. Quite frankly, in real life you don't get many chances for the same thing (you've failed a job interview you're stuffed. Some think that it doesn't matter, you'll find another one. Well, wasn't the first job the one you really wanted? how bad did you want it then?) There is so much gratification for everything. I'm not sure it's very healthy. As for blaming mothers because they go to work and children suffer... in most countries in the world the very large majority of mothers do go to work everyday and children are much better behaved. The world is not only formed by Europe and USA, there are so many, many children in the rest of the world. Probably more than all the ones put together here. Not that I've met many of them, but I have the feeling they somewhat behave better and work harder at school. Or maybe I'm just being incredibly ignorant...

I don't know what is wrong...it saddens me a lot but that's the way things are. Children need to learn and be told that they HAVE to be well behaved, respect others and do well in school (they just have to do well in school, there's no question of trying later, later is too late, there's something else to be good at later).

And absolutely, it cannot be done without good support from parents and teachers, but mostly parents, family.

I don't like to get involved in all these serious debates, because everyone here is right and you all know what you're talking about and are switched on, but it was just a point I wanted to make and I suspect quite a lot of you think in similar ways, just wanted to say it that's all. I'm in no way criticising any individuals, contries or anything. It's the view I have , my own perspective on what little I know about the British education system.

and hmb, you are sooo right...

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nikkim · 13/09/2004 22:38

Have been thinking about different attitudes to education in other countries ( I will use any excuse to get out of writing an essay!) and while I have never taught abroad I have taught qute a few refugee children and despite the line of many right wing papers on how our education system is being swamped and threatened by such children I found the reverse to be true. the children I taught tended to come from Iraq, Afghanistand and Lebanon and they were on the whole an absolute joy to teach as they had a respect for education and saw it a s a gift rather than a chore. I can remember on girl in particlular who was in one of my rowdier classes who said to me once "Why don't they want to learn?" she just couldn't understand why the other students were not taking advantage of the education that was handed to them on a plate.

I totally agree with the false reliance on resitting exams. My sister is currently doing a levels and has decided to resit hers before even doing them! Whenever i ask her how the studying is going, mainly because I never see her doing any, she says not to stress about it as she can resit anyway! When i did a levels ( and it isn't that long ago there was an option to resit but it was a last resort.

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hmb · 14/09/2004 06:37

I have also seen schools in Africa, full of the same things. Kids who walk many miles to get to school, who have to siy on the floor, have no books etc and yet they could speak excellent English and were keen and enthusiastic.

Over reliance on resits is a very bad thing. And also over reliance on state handouts. Some of our 'worst' kids come from families where no-one has held a job for three generations. the kids have no intention of working in or out of school as they know how to play the system and can make a reasonable living on handouts. Some of them look at you as if you are mad when you ask then what they want to be when they leave school. Nine of the assylum seakes will have had this safely net, so they grab every oppertunity with both hands.

Interestingly when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s the same sort of thing held true. I was raised in a deprived area of Wales. If you didn't take every chance you could ,people thought you were an idiot! I wonder what has changed for some kids?

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fisil · 14/09/2004 07:30

hmb - as usual I agree with what you're saying (sorry to have missed out yesterday - far too busy!). NomDePlume, getting back to your original point, I see what your saying, and yes you are right, the majority of people working in socially deprived inner city schools have made a positive decision to work there, and get a lot out of it. I love it and would find it hard to teach elsewhere. I know it is a risky environment, and I know that that doesn't make the risks or the behaviour acceptable.

I'm sorry to put this point of view, but sometimes it is the teacher that is the one lacking respect. I was so busy yesterday as I was picking up the pieces when two young men who are not treated well at home were treated extremely disrespectfully by their teacher. I will have a lot of work to do trying to change the teacher's behaviour (harder, in a way, than dealing with the kids).

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