How to hijack the 11+ so your kids get into Grammar School: a guide for the middle classes

[FatherTed]

THIS is why the 11+ and grammar (or grammer depending on which thread you read) doesn't improve social mobility. Sorry, but it's true.

[Kathyis6incheshigh]

Agree with Grr & GSS. Did you see that prog the other day about the school that implemented a no-swearing policy? When they surveyed the kids it turned out this was actually what they wanted.

[Grrrr]

PMSL at a) your mn name and b) the comment re telling adults to "fuck off and die".

Too true I'm afraid.

[Grrrr]

Kathy, I missed that, is it due to be repeated ? What channel was it on ?

[frogs]

Agree with Grr and Gss. Also, if a school is considered hard to get into, then logically kids and parents should be more appreciative of the school and hence more likely to toe the line in terms of behaviour and working hard.

So it becomes self-fulfilling.

[Lilymaid]

I don't notice any difference in behaviour between DS1 (independent school) and DS2 (comprehensive). The badly behaved ones will be badly behaved because they have been badly brought up by their parents and will naturally congregate with their peer group.
Looking back to when I sat the 11+ from a very middle class area, I don't think anyone working class passed in my year. I think the social mobility was then for those in industrial areas.

[Kathyis6incheshigh]

Was Monday, Channel 4 Cutting Edge series; it had Simon Donald from Viz and Ann Atkins - they were meant to represent pro- and anti-swearing attitudes but both ended up anti.

[UnquietDad]

Lilyamid. Interesting that you chose to send one DS private and the other to a state school. Could you tell us why? (Not having a go, just interested as I don't know anybody who has done that.)

[frogs]

UQD, I know several people who have done it, generally after starting both off in state system and discovering that one child's needs weren't being met.

[Grrrr]

But we still need to focus on the 80% who won't "get in".

Some of the 80% need an altogether more appropriate education to stop them completely switching off to any form of learning.

They want money in hand, so give them a means to getting it when they leave school as trained/trainable/employable 16 to 18 year olds rather than pushing them into ever easier to achieve GCSE's in media studies etc which will do very little for them at the end of the day. Stands to reason that it could have a knock-on effect on crime through the reduction in truanting and getting into drugs and drink problems.

I sound so old fashioned don't I and it's just not fashionable to focus on the 80% because the journalist types presumably expect that their children will be in the top 20% academically .

[Daddster]

I have to part company with Unquiet Dad (with whom I normally otherwise have a measure of concurrence of opinion).

We need no grammar schools at all. What we do need are good schools with supportive parents and well-supported teachers, which are inclusive and provide appropriate levels of teaching with setting according to ability and non-academic subjects as appropriate (IMHO of course ).

Then there would be no need for all this cramming and extra tutoring for silly entrance exams. Primary schools could actually concentrate on educating kids rather than hothousing them for an 11+, parents could actually concentrate on supporting their kids' education and development rather than treating them like a business case to be made for a grammar school and the kids might end up actually realxing a bit more and enjoying their time at school.

[Zog]

Agree with all your posts Grrr. Some days it makes me but most days (like today) just very .

[Zog]

Good post Daddster.

[Lilymaid]

UnquietDad
Local comprehensive (to which DS2 goes) then didn't set pupils until Y8 and didn't then do 3 sciences (now sets after 1st 6 weeks and does 3 sciences!). Independent school in nearest town is one of best academically in the country and bus goes almost door to door. DS1 got in with bursary and was very happy. DS2 would have found it too challenging then. Decision as regards DS1 was difficult because local comprehensive is relatively good and DS1 could have gone to outstanding state sixth form college from there. We are now going to pay for DS2 in 6th Form as he didn't get a place in the outstanding state one (probably full of privately educated students, grr, grr!)

[Grrrr]

Oh I think you forgot to add "world peace" to your wish list Dadster

[Kathyis6incheshigh]

That all sounds very nice, Daddster - now are you going to tell us how we're going to achieve it - at least give us a few hints!

For a start, do you keep the catchment area thing? Are schools allowed to specialise? Private schools to be abolished or not? Parents to have any choice in which schools to send the children to?

I will suggest abolishing league tables, for a start, as I think they lead to the quality of schools getting polarised very quickly.

[GiantSquirrelSpotter]

Lilymaid I think people can under-estimate the danger of peer group pressure. And also bullying.

I knew a child years ago who was terribly badly bullied because she bothered to do her homework etc. After two years of despair trying to make the school do something about it, the mother moved her DD into a different school.

The first thing the child did on arrival, was to make friends with all the bad girls so that she would never be bullied again. So her peer group was very different to what it had been at the other school. She wasn't bullied, but she did take up shoplifting and truanting...

[Grrrr]

I fear the effects of peer pressure and bullying far more than the effects of poor teaching, large class sizes, lack of school resources.

[Freckle]

It seems rather naive to assume that all parents do their best for their children. There are plenty who don't. I see them, constantly dragging themselves into school late, parents not attending consultations, sometimes coming into school with no lunch.... And I'm not even a teacher - just an occasional helper - I bet teachers see far more.

So utopia would be supportive parents - but there are many who aren't and their attitudes rub off on their children who don't want to be in school and can end up being disruptive.

My utopia would be a range of different schools - such as grammars for the academically inclined; technical schools for the more practical; arts schools for the creative, etc. Then at least parents and children would have a true choice of education, opting for whichever type suited them best and best prepared them for life after education.

[CarGirl]

Around where I am some of the independent schools are asking 7 year olds to leave if they do not do well enough in their sats . The whole thing is a nightmare, high %ages of children going to independent school does seem to have a negtive impact on the standards of the local state schools, or perhaps it's just because I live in a relatively cheap area for M25 boundary/surrey.

[ripax]

thats why us middle classes don't want out kids hanging about roughyeds, scoundrels and plebs. lazy working classes always on benefits and have no ambition.

[beckybrastraps]

I am heartily glad I didn't have to make a decision at 11 as to whether I was creatively/technically/mathematically/whatever inclined. And that my parents didn't have to make that choice for me.

[Freckle]

Perhaps then secondary education should start a little later, at 13 - as it does in some areas anyway.

[Ladymuck]

My father didn't even know which secondary school I attended. If it wasn't for the teachers at my primary school I would not have bothered applying to any other school - just gone along to the local Catholic school.

It is only many years later that I realise quite what an impression I would have made at the age of 10 going up to an independent school by myself to apply for the exams (including paying the application fee in cash). My parents rarely went to parents evenings, and having left school at 13 themselves didn't have that much input into homework. They were very anti the idea that i should do A levels or go to university as they though that I would be better off getting a job.

All along I'm very grateful for the input of my teachers. I think that one of the failings of the current 11+ system locally is that it isn't automatic - you only do it if your parents apply.

[Grrrr]

BBS, I thought you only made that sort of decision at 13/14 in the old system of grammar schools and secondary moderns, i.e., whne seletcing your O Levels (as they were then known).

I agree that its madness having to select, at the age of 10/11 which local comp to apply to where one is designated a modern languages specialist school, one a sports specialist and my particular favourite the local performing comprehensive specialising in the performing arts. FAME, anyone ?

FAME ! I'm gonna live forever.........

Makes the 11+ look like a jolly sensible system all round doesn't it ?

[GiantSquirrelSpotter]

Good point LM.

I'm astonished by most of the parents I know. They automatically assume their child will go to the local sink school - it hasn't even crossed their minds that their dc might go to the grammar.