Maths GCSE in Primary

[winterisstillcoming]

Hey everybody, I was wondering if you could help clear something up for me.

I was speaking to my SIL yesterday who told me her Y5 son is revising for his maths GCSE. He is at independent school. I said be careful only the first attempt counts. As a trustee of an Academy trust that has recently decided not to put students forward early for this reason, I thought I knew what I was talking about. Apparently not according to my SIL.

So was she correct, and is it an independent school thing that students are allowed to resit? Which puts my Trust's students at a disadvantage??

She was so bloody patronising too. And she got my nephews GCSE text books out at a family wedding.

[BertrandRussell]

I don’t have a problem with kids doing exams early if it is entirely for their benefit. How does it benefit a child to do Maths GCSE at 11?

[noblegiraffe]

gfrnn There’s no contradiction there. It is rare to enter a student totally confident they’ll get the top grade, and that student would not lose the top grade by something going astray on the day. It was in response to a poster who said that an entire class of students were entered for GCSE early and some of them did not get the top grade. The clear conclusion is that some of those students were not rare very able mathematicians and therefore entering the whole class was a gamble.

We’ve talked on the other thread about acceleration as a general policy for large groups of students and how it damages some students chances of getting the highest grade that they are capable of. This anecdote is one example of that, and an issue that you continually ignore.

This kid in Y5 will get his GCSE maths. If he gets a B/C equivalent, for example, as some entered in primary do (a decision to enter which totally baffles me), then he will have to continue studying GCSE maths and probably resit as he is not in a position to do A-level. So what was the point?
If he gets a 9, then he is exceptionally rare and at least he is in an independent school who have the money and resources to throw at him. As I said on the previous thread, I have come across 1 child in my teaching career who really needed to sit exams out of year group, I’m not saying they don’t exist at all. The rest, and I’ve taught some pretty bright kids, can be catered for by a good teacher in a top set. Not perfectly, obviously, but not uncatered for to the point where they become depressed school dropouts as your gloomy link seems to threaten.

[TeenTimesTwo]

gfrnn

I think it's quite straightforward.

There has only been one running of the new GCSE, so the teachers can't yet tell a 'dead cert' for a grade 9 from a 'might scrape on a good day' to a 'solid 8 but not a 9'.

A 'very able' mathematician should be a 'dead cert', so dropping a few marks by having an off day would still put them solidly in 9.

Whereas putting a whole set in early there will be 'able but not outstanding' pupils who would benefit from the extra year to get them slightly higher up the rankings from 'might just get a 9 on a good day' to 'this is the best chance they have of a 9'.

So I don't see any conflict in what noble has written.

Also wrt 'gifted'. State schools are set up for the benefit of the majority. So within a top set maths, the teacher will be teaching to that ability, with some extension work for the most able. The policies re early entry refer to entering whole sets, not to a random exceptionally able child.

But if you want a random exceptionally able child to have personal 1-1 teaching far far out of age group, then I don't think state schools will generally be able to manage it.

[JustRichmal]

I do agree that entering the whole class is pointless and detrimental to those children who do not get top grade.
However, there is nothing to cater for those children who are, for whatever reason, ahead.
Dd has loved doing A level, and so would many more children. If they have done GCSE, I do not see an enrichment path that does not involve any of the topics in A level as calculus is such a big topic. I do not see how enrichment could have given her the same challenge without encroaching on A level topics.
UKMT does not offer the same challenge as understanding logs, radians, parametric equations, etc.

[noblegiraffe]

However, there is nothing to cater for those children who are, for whatever reason, ahead.

Yet you mention the UKMT who are precisely for children gifted at maths! They don’t offer the same challenge as A-level, but it’s entirely wrong to say they don’t offer a challenge. The Olympiads are exceptionally difficult to get full marks on.

And there’s a difference between encroaching on A-level topics and deliberately pre-teaching A-level topics to the A-level style and doing A-level papers.

[RubiaPTA]

Why shouldn't they do A level?

[JustRichmal]

Why can children not be taught A level content?

[noblegiraffe]

Because if you take A-level too early you can run out of secondary maths before you finish secondary school which is an issue for university applications. Starting on university maths is also problematic.

There are other things you can do. The school curriculum is quite narrow.

[noblegiraffe]

I’m talking from a state school perspective, btw. Private schools, as I have said previously, have probably got the money and resources to approach things differently.

[RubiaPTA]

There are 7 different maths A levels my old college offers. Even at a rate of 1 a year starting in year 7 you wouldn't run out...

[noblegiraffe]

Who would be teaching the child these 7 different maths A-levels? (I can’t think of 7?).

[JustRichmal]

Noble, perhaps the answer would be for children who have taken GCSE to do further maths in topics not in the A level curriculum, but just as challenging. My understanding was that calculus, logs and radians were so fundamental to higher level maths, it would be nearly impossible to move on without covering something about these topics.

[noblegiraffe]

You’d need to talk to @ohyoubadbadkitten about what’s needed for UKMT competitions, I don’t really know. But they do at least try to work alongside the curriculum, using maths in a different way.

[BertrandRussell]

How does it benefit the child to do GCSE maths early?

[MumTryingHerBest]

JustRichmal Why can children not be taught A level content?

There is nothing preventing a child learning A level content. There are plenty of resources available on the internet.

[titchy]

There are 7 different maths A levels my old college offers

I suspect you are referring to 7 different versions - e.g. Maths with Stats is a different A Level from Maths with Mechanics (I think these are old now but you get the idea) - in which case there is significant overlap.

For able Mathematicians being introduced to a wider range of topics than GCSE and A level syllabuses offer has to be better for the child surely. Problem with this approach of course is that it doesn't offer parents any bragging rights....

[JustRichmal]

How does it benefit the child to do GCSE maths early?
Mine stopped coming home crying with the tedium of spending her favourite lesson being taught what she already knew.

[MummySparkle]

I got level 7 Maths at the end of primary school, our y6 teacher had a lunchtime club where she taught us algebra and how to solve it.

Top set maths at secondary school, we sat GCSE statistics in y10 and GCSE maths in y11 with everyone else. I'm not sure why more schools don't use this approach. There's nothing to lose! I probably could have sat A-level Maths early. As it was I went into hospital for a year in y12 and my maths brain has never been quite the same. I'm gutted as my plan was to study maths at Cambridge. But things change! I finally got AS maths a few years ago as I'd previously sat 4 modules but all with different exam boards... I don't have a-level maths and I probably won't persue it now.

This is coming from someone who got a gold in the Olympiad and then attended the UKMT summer school for the top 50 scorers in the next round. Exam results don't necessarily equate to ability.

[MumTryingHerBest]

JustRichmal - Mine stopped coming home crying with the tedium of spending her favourite lesson being taught what she already knew.

So what was your DC doing while everyone was being taught GCSE Maths?

[noblegiraffe]

Maths with Stats is a different A Level from Maths with Mechanics

Oh is that’s what’s being referred to? Yeah, the stats and mechanics bits would be the only different bits between the two A-levels, the core maths would be the same.

But they don’t exist any more. There is only one Maths A-level syllabus now, which contains stats and mechanics, there’s no choice. Further maths still has options, but I think Additional Further Maths has also gone.

[JustRichmal]

So what was your DC doing while everyone was being taught GCSE Maths?

Sitting quietly at the side doing A level work.

[MumTryingHerBest]

JustRichmal - Sitting quietly at the side doing A level work.

What was she doing when everyone was being taught A Level Maths?

[JustRichmal]

She will do further maths A level and if that runs out, moocs

[BertrandRussell]

“How does it benefit the child to do GCSE maths early?
Mine stopped coming home crying with the tedium of spending her favourite lesson being taught what she already knew.”

No. That was because she was being given properly differentiated work. My question was about actually doing the GCSE curriculum and the exam. How does that benefit a child?

[MumTryingHerBest]

JustRichmal Is your DC currently studying GCSEs or A Levels?