teacher crisis

[supplysam]

New name, I have been reading threads in education for a long time, and really want to put across to some parents what is really going on in our schools.

I've been in schools for 30 years. Not all teachers will have witnessed what I've witnessed, or experienced what I've experienced, but many will have.

I taught for decades. I resigned because the "profession" is now nothing more than slave labour. The normal day is 15+ hours, and many days are longer. fulfilling all the requirements of being a full time teacher simply do not leave time to sleep and eat. Not only that, but you are held over a barrel by ofsted (and school managers) who blame you for the behavior and attitude of students and parents, when you have no control over either. I am not blaming school managers, buy the way, they are often under insane and ridiculous pressure themselves.

As a supply teacher, I walk in at the stat of the day, and walk out at the end, with my job done, and no pressure or expectations at all. The pay is good, and there is no shortage of work.

I am often asked back, I am often BEGGED to take long term positions. This is what happens. I take it, on a day to day basis. When the work load starts piling up, when I find I am spending my family time on irrelevant and rubbishy non educational paperwork, when the attitude of any student becomes something I don't want to listen to, I leave.

The next day, I am in another job, being begged to stay!

[FannyGlum]

There is no other support for some of these children, SEN provision is pitiful and so everyone just gets chucked in a classroom with one teacher to deal with it.

If there were better support provision for these children who find it hard to cope, for children who need SEN support, then teachers would be able to manage better. The lack of this extra support means they spend all of their time and attention to on on a few children, usually the worst behaved or most in need.

[mercifulTehlu]

Yes, so true. And while it's true that some kids have genuine problems, many are just poorly-behaved because they can be and because they don't give a damn. In the meantime, the education of huge numbers of well-behaved kids is damaged. And there are probably many who would be well-behaved but see others getting away with it and think "What the hell... I'm not learning much anyway, I might as well join in a bit with the trouble-makers".

The thing is, whether the disruption is being caused by kids with real problems, or by wilful troublemakers, I fail to see why the other kids should suffer. And it's the good kids with less able support at home who suffer most educationally.

[mercifulTehlu]

I was always wary of doing supply because I thought the kids would be worse behaved for a supply teacher, but I'm not finding that at all. It turns out the tricky ones often behave better because the supply teacher, unlike their usual teacher, is not going to be there week-in, week-out giving them a hard time about not doing their work. They have twigged that in a cover lesson they are pretty much left alone if they keep quietish.

[momtothree]

Well why isn't there anything you can do about it?

You must have behaviour policies - exclusion rooms - remove them from trips? Plus rewards etc for good behaviour.

DD school has issues in her class and they sent home an expected behaviour form - things to discuss with your child - it included shouting out - whispering - being late - then more attitude towards each other - being nice not being dramatic not spreading lies etc -


We then had to agree to a harsher behaviour plan - missed breaks etc - exclusion from sports teams -

Things have settled with parents input. Because we know!

[mercifulTehlu]

Of course there are behaviour policies! It's hard to find punishments that the kids really care about tbh. And even harder to find rewards they care about. Generally speaking, if they are the kind of kids who are motivated by school trips, being on sports teams and earning rewards, they are not the kind of kids who are repeatedly causing trouble! Missed break times? Pfft! Detention? Won't turn up. Or do turn up, but don't really care about being there. Call their parents? Parents often either don't support the school or have no control over the kid themselves. What else is there?

[FannyGlum]

Because a lot of parents won't support the school! Because the behaviour policy relies on SLT supporting you higher up. I was assaulted by a student which resulted in a 'restorative practice' meeting. Nothing else. Without the support of management the behaviour code doesn't work. And then every so often they swoop in and do a big gesture like a massive detention. But it doesn't last. And then you are threatened with capability because of the behaviour, and because even though they have refused to let you remove a very badly behaved child from lessons, your results aren't as good as they should be. The management answer is you need to work harder, have more targets set, do more marking, mark with a different colour pen, fill in more data spreadsheets.

[mercifulTehlu]

FannyGlum . This is why I hope thousands more teachers vote with their feet. It's going to have to get even worse before anyone will get the message. And yes, I know I'm wishing chaos on the current cohorts of kids. My dd starts secondary in September. But we have to think long-term.

[MrsGuyOfGisbo]

I popped in to help at sports days
Yes, I do this at ths chools I regularly work in - eg buy tickets for their drama productions, go to summer fairs etc, 'cos I am genuinely interested and like to see the kids in a different environment to the classroom and really helps with relationship building.

I agree about the punishments and rewards being meaningless to the kids who are recidivists... When you look on SIMS and see that a kid has detentions/school detentions/Saturday detentions booked ahead nearly every day for a month it is clear that it is not effective, and in fact the threat of a another detention on the next available date - eg May 5th etc is completely non-existent. Isolation is more of a deterrent, particularly in schools where the kids have to wait in reception, not going to tutor group, and remain there at lunchtime and break, but there is only so much room, and if there are several of them in there it is not isolation... ( And also out of lesson time so that work missed somehow has to be caught up by being actively taught)

[NewLife4Me]

My dd gets lots of detentions at her school, it is a ss specialist school.
If they aren't doing what they should no matter how small the incidence they receive demerits (called something else) three of these and it's a heads detention.
As they are only minor behavioural issues they can soon mount up, and as my dd is always doing something wrong they soon mount up.
Does she learn, well yes she doesn't make the same mistake again, but she makes plenty others.
Anything major will see you gated, this is no fun when all your friends are off to town and you can't.
They suspend for smoking, drinking, and drugs, weapons / anything illegal will see you excluded.

[mercifulTehlu]

Yes but if the child's parents don't support the school, they wouldn't send them in for a Saturday detention (if the school offered them, which state schools largely don't ).

Demerits don't bother kids. And you can't gate someone if they are not allowed off the school premises during the school day anyway. Even the threat of internal or external exclusion doesn't bother some kids. Seriously, there is little that you can do that would work.

[NewLife4Me]

merciful

I think both me and dreamgirls were giving examples of what happens at our schools, which are different to state schools.

The gated approach certainly works as do detentions.
There is no disruption in the classroom apart from the odd primary aged child and they usually have it sorted by y7.
It's very rare for children to be sent out for disrupting the class, but when there are only sometimes 10 children, they are obviously easier to manage than 30+.
I think 21 dc is the biggest class dd has and that's the full year.

[IdealWeather]

what's worrying is that a quite high level of general rudeness and misbehaviour is just accepted as the norm

When I watched 'Our SChool' on the BBC, I was astionished and [angry} at the level of disruption that is tolerated in a classroom.
I'm not British and from my pov, the behaviour of these so called 'nice' kids in an 'outstanding' school was absolutely awful.

However, I was told in no uncertain terms that was OK

[FannyGlum]

Kids in private school can easily go find another school. Not so easy in the state sector. If a kid has no transport, or if other schools are full.

[mercifulTehlu]

I know, it's awful. When I went for interview at a lovely girls' private school, after about 7 years teaching in London comps, I asked them out of interest "What is your behaviour sanctions policy?". They said "Behaviour sanctions policy? We don't really have one of those." They just didn't need one. I gave one detention during the many years I was there - it was a girl who was persistently flouting the rules about permitted hairstyles . Bad behaviour in lessons was pretty much unheard of. Usually they all thanked me for the lesson as they left the classroom.

[clam]

However, I was told in no uncertain terms that was OK

By whom?

[minifingerz]

If private schools didn't exist you can bet your arse that the state school system would improve, because the current state of affairs wouldn't be tolerated by leaders of industry, senior civil servants, doctors, architects, successful business people, Tory politicians, celebrities, etc who in the UK largely have their children in private schools.

Those people who have the most influence on the whole don't give two shits, because it doesn't impact on their children.

[minifingerz]

"We're all in this together!"

We so are NOT.

[MrsGuyOfGisbo]

I occasionally cover at a local independent school. They rarely need supply teachers and never use agencies - they have several people like me who they know well and pay directly as and when needed - eg when there is a school trip out with several teachers on it. When I have been there I have been amazed at how much work we get through because there is no disruption, no phones out, politely listen to instructions and thank me on the way out. There are still lively discussions, they are bright sparky teenagers, but they are productive, and I feel it is safe to turn my back to write on the whiteboard without fear of missiles striking me. I am sure there must be pastoral issues to be dealt with by the perm staff, but no low-level disruption in the classroom.
My own DC are a different indie. When I first started teacher training I asked them how the teachers dealt with fights in the classroom. They were genuinely bemused - fights/classroom? did not compute... in my supply life, I see a lot of fights
(And re state school and Saturday detentions - my favourite inner-city comp ( outstanding, and very obviously so) in a deprived area does have Saturday detentions, and take rudeness etc very seriously. One of the reasons
I go there a lot is because although the behaviour can be challenging, SLT (and the HT) are EVERYWHERE - highly visible at break time/lunch/lesson changes/before and after school/pop in sometimes in lessons, and do vigorously back up teachers - even supply teachers...)

[minifingerz]

Sorry, should add, I know lots of Labour MPs are disgusting hypocrites about this. Yes Diane Abbott, I'm looking at you.

[NewLife4Me]

I don't think the difference in behaviour is just the difference between private and state though. I think it's down to lots of contributing factors, such as parental involvement and the policies and procedures in state schools.

it isn't that private schools have richer parents who pay school fees as my dd school and I believe Dreamgirls school can testify.
There are poor people like me and even poorer at dd school, there are far fewer rich people who are paying fees and the children are lovely, well behaved and yes, thank the teachers for their lesson and time.
I think it's the culture of the school and the leadership that dictate the code of behaviour.

[MrsGuyOfGisbo]

Tony Blair and Nick Clegg ( like countless others) played the religion card instead of sending their DC to the nearest comp.

[MrsGuyOfGisbo]

Phones are a big problem. There really is a big difference I see in the schools that allow phones and those that don't. One comp near me, deprived area - zero tolerance of phones seen or heard - if seen they are confiscated, and a parent has to make an appointment to collect - rarely needed!
Another leafy CoE school in MC area allows phone 'at break and lunchtime' In fact you see them all the time, because even if they are blatantly on them - doing who-knows-what, you can only confiscate them for that lesson, so they might as well try it on, 'cos they will get back at the end of the lesson anyway. Needless to say - lots of wasted time there.
If I were looking now for state secondaries for my own DC, and I wanted them to have learning time in lessons, I would absolutely ask about mobile phone policy and favour the zero tolerance ones...