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Why are there no grammar schools in Wales? They seem like a good idea?

84 replies

Peppaismyhomegirl · 02/02/2016 10:11

I've done a little bit of research, I don't know a lot about the subject but I think I like the idea of grammer schools. I've been having a look locally and discovered there are none in Wales! Is this right? Why?!

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fatbottomgirl67 · 04/02/2016 09:17

I don't have a problem with Gs. Dd1 is at a super selective Gs and is thriving.. She was not tutored as we had no idea about the system. Can't sing the schools praises highly enough and the range of extra curricular activities is phenomenal . Dd2 sat 11+ but didn't get a place in same svhool( only scored 98%) she then decided to go to local comp . She is really happy. Doing really well she's in year 10 now and this is where we've noticed the difference. In some GCSEs subject there is only one class so teacher has to teach a huge range of abilities. Perhaps means kids not pushed as far as they could be? Ds1 is a same comp - he's very dyslexic. He gets lots of help but finds it all hard. I would love for him to be able to go to a tech - he's very practical. Not an option. Just seems with the system as it stands it doesn't work for all levels. I would love a return to the old system. As my son says why are they trying to get him to write in French when he struggles with English. Vocational training would benefit so many kids like him

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ReallyTired · 04/02/2016 09:25

There are good comprehensives and bad comprehensives. We need more educational research to learn how to get the best out of our children.

In england there is no evidence to show that areas like Kent do better Hertfordshire with only a handful of selective schools. Most children in Hertfordshire do not have the opportunity to attend a grammar school however bright they are because of distance. The tiny number of selective state schools in Hertfordshire do not have enough places to destroy the top set at the nearest comprehensives.

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Badbadbunny · 04/02/2016 09:29

I realise I'm going off an a bit of a tangent here but I've been following this thread and I'm beginning to wonder what 'intensive tutoring' actually looks like in practice. Is it a tutor once a week or every day? Is it just teaching of the curriculum one-to-one or is it teaching things that the curriculum doesn't cover ? Genuinely intrigued and if anyone has any experience please do share!

Different areas/schools will require different approaches. Some areas have 3 or 4 multiple choice papers and no interview. Other areas (usually super selectives) have an interview and written papers rather than multiple choice, so are far harder (due to sheer number of entrants and high competition) and are said to have "pass" marks of 90%+ needed in every paper. In those areas, realistically, an untutored child (by a professional or a knowledgable parent) hasn't a chance. That's the unfairness and where money comes into it.

In other areas, it's far more "normal" like it was back in the 60s - in our area, the grammar was half the size of the town's sec mod, so a third of kids went to the grammar and two thirds to the sec mod - hardly elitism! Pass mark for our local schools now is said to be in the 60/70% range, with a good mark in one paper making up for a lower mark (below pass mark) in another as they add all three marks together. Ours were just 3 multiple choice papers. There are only 2 or 3 applicants for each place, so not as much competition, hence the "easier" 11+ papers and lower "pass" marks. Realistically, tutoring isn't required in our area and few kids are tutored. The main local tutor does a course of 1 hour every two weeks for about 3-6 months, so maybe 6-12 hours of formal tuition which covers all three papers. Other tutors do ad-hoc tutoring by the hour covering specific problem areas and areas not yet covered by the school. The most popular thing locally is a mock test done by one of the tutors where he hires a church hall for a morning and gives a mock test exactly how the real test would be, i.e. exam desks, equipment & silence rules, loo breaks, refreshments, etc., just to get the kids some experience of a formal exam setting which is something they just don't get at a primary and which can really affect some. He also includes a short presentation about conduct in the exam room, i.e. ignoring other kids if they wet themselves, start crying, run out, or any other destractions, etc., and also tells them what to do if they need the loo, feel upset, need their pencil sharpening, etc. Really puts their minds at rest. 9 out of 30 kids in my son's primary class went to our local grammar, most of whom didn't have any formal tutoring at all, and we're in a deprived, low income area!

I do think that the money/intensive tutoring required in super selective areas really clouds the issue and fuels this idea that only the super-rich can afford a grammar education. That's not true in a lot of the areas outside London and the SE where it's a lot more normal and low pressure and "normal" bright children can get a grammar place without having money thrown at them!

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ReallyTired · 04/02/2016 10:58

Off on another tangent. Why is that welsh students achieve less well PISA tests than students in other parts of the UK? Most of England has no grammar schools so it can't be the lack of selective education. Welsh students under achieve even when factors like deprivation are taken into account.

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houseHuntinginmanchester · 04/02/2016 11:31

Really, really ( Grin) I didn't know that. Does it have something to do with average household income or the like.

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ReallyTired · 04/02/2016 12:08

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-25196974

Its nothing to do with household income.

www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_270749.pdf

Northern Ireland has a lower average household income than Wales, yet Northern Irish children do better at school. (Interestingly northern ireland has a grammar school system.) Scotland (with no grammar schools) has a slightly higher average income than Wales, but they have better educational results as well. Scotland has a bigger

There are schools in London with lots of kids on free school meals that do really well. I am not sure that poverty is an excuse for low expectation. Possibly wales has similar problems to the coastal towns of England or the North East where there has been a culture of low expectation and underachievement. Maybe wales needs to look at schemes like Teach First that have helped deprived areas of England.

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houseHuntinginmanchester · 04/02/2016 14:59

Hmm, that's interesting, really.
Ive always wanted to know how much of the results are related to ability/ other factors and how much to expectations. I have found differences in my dd's eyfs goals when we moved area. The first nursery had assessed her as 'exceeding' in many of the areas. The new nursery re-assessed her as 'expected' for almost all of the goals. They were the same goals taken from the eyfs.
I think a lot about the impact of teacher expectation in schools. I've asked a couple of her new teachers and put forward the idea of a diluted curriculum in less better schools OR lower expectations. They've just reiterated that the NC content is the same in every school and that as professionals all teachers should have high expectations.

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travellinglighter · 06/02/2016 08:56

Dear livingforever

Speaking as an ex council estate kid, I know how rough some council estates are. I realise that it's a bit of a stereotype but stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. Ask yourself this question, how many world boxing champs went to Eton?

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Blu · 06/02/2016 11:24

Badbadbunny: interviewing is not allowed for admissions to state schools.

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