Benefits of selective education?

[AmberTheCat]

I'm aware that I've been cluttering up the 11+ tutoring thread with discussions the OP said she didn't want, on the merits or otherwise of grammar schools in principle, so I'll stop doing that and start my own thread!

So, I genuinely don't get why so many people think separating children by ability (or potential, or however you try to do it) at 11 or even younger is a good thing. Why will they benefit more from that than from properly differentiated teaching in a comprehensive school? And what about the children who aren't selected? How does a selective system benefit them?

Genuine questions. I'm strongly in favour of comprehensive education, but would really like to better understand the arguments against.

[Clavinova]

You might be able to study further maths at a comp but not Latin it would appear; Talkin and motherinferior's dds both study Latin but
Talkin's school only offers Latin " to 30 of the most able and motivated students" (30 out of 284 students) and Motherinferior's school offers Latin to the "most able students" identified in Year 7 (ie at age 11 from SATs/CATs scores).
Why can't a Level 4 child or a B grade student study Latin at these comps (or computer science etc. etc.)? They might be good at it!
Yes OP, "What about the children who aren't selected?" We only hear from mumsnetters with dc in top sets at the comp.

[Clavinova]

Funnily enough I've known several boys who were very good at maths and quite poor at English pass for superselective grammar schools; the schools have 4 or 5 years to work on the English. If you look at the GCSE results for boys' grammar schools the maths results are littered with As and A*s and the English results often contain Bs and Cs.

[HercShipwright]

I have a DS at a comp, a DD at a SS and another DD due to start at the SS in September. All DCs have SEN, the DS's needs are more complex than the DDs. He's top set maths and science, well below that in English, nothing else set at this stage. He's at the right school for him but the SEN support not great. He's 'better' at maths than DD1 was. DD2 probably the best. I hope it works out for them all. It seems to be doing so for DD1.

[TalkinPeace]

Clavinova
No pupils get latin any more .... the teacher is retiring. DD was the last year. DS is not getting that option.
I'm pretty hacked about that, but hey, that is the chance you take.

[Procrastreation]

The thing is though - you have to look down the other end of the telescope - not just at British 11 year olds, but at worldwide 18 year olds.

I grew up in Yorkshire - not only were there no grammar schools, but the children of council leaders and university lecturers wen to the local state schools out of principle. It was a big and generally well regarded school. It left me naked and unprepared for Cambridge.

'Being able to get an A anywhere' really isn't an internationally competitive attitude. I understand the argument about stifling potential at 11 - but my viewpoint is also shaped by seeing the wasted potential at 18.

FWIW, I think there are more sophisticated ways of doing it than the Kent 11+. Off the top of my head, better systems would include: super-selectives, 13+ testing and twinning links between comps and grammars to allow people to move more naturally, and for e.g. sport & music (I think there is a new school like this somewhere).

[Bonsoir]

It left me naked and unprepared for Cambridge

That is a good point.

I also believe, increasingly, that people's mental health can be deeply affected by being in circumstances where their brain power is out of sync with those around them.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Everybody should be given the chance to take 11+ for grammar school entrance and there should be more of them. The tests should be tutor proof so only the really untutored bright dc get in.
Sorry but boo hoo if your child isn't up to it, none of mine were.
Just because we can't have a particular thing in life doesn't mean that others shouldn't.

[morethanpotatoprints]

My ds2 went to the local CofE high school, Latin was offered at y8 onwards to those in the top set for language. It is the only school in the area to offer it and hardly anybody chose to study it from his year.

[motherinferior]

What, that being brighter than the people around you sends you off your head?

Not sure about that. Oxford was full of people who were completely off their heads. As any of my fellow-alumni will attest, I'm sure

Clavinova, I am not in truth absolutely sure what the point of the damn Latin is, mind...

[Bonsoir]

In whatever direction.

Humans are social animals and need to connect with others to be happy. It's very difficult to form long-term stable connections with people when you cannot follow one another's train of thought.

[cory]

so morethanpotatoes, is it also the boo hoo to the child who was too ill to attend school for large parts of Year 6?

boo hoo to the child (later a straight A student with a special gift for science) whose mother happened to be dying during that year of her life?

both these children have been able to fulfill their promise due to the comprehensive school that nurtured their talent regardless of where they had been during a short period in their pre-teens

the problem with selective schools, as I see it, is not that everybody can't have them, but that if some children do get them, the other children will not be able to have the product they otherwise would have had- because the secondaries in a selective system will of necessity be different in character to real comprehensives

Incidentally, my dh got a full scholarship to an academic independent through tests at age 11- and so might have reasonably be thought to have stood a good chance of getting into a selective grammar. He went off the boil and failed both his GCSE's and his A-levels. So what makes someone like him more worthy of being given the chance of a stringent education than the two girls I mentioned earlier who were struggling with constant pain and horrendous family circumstances? I don't see that it's any sign that he was brighter than them either.

[pointythings]

so morethanpotatoes, is it also the boo hoo to the child who was too ill to attend school for large parts of Year 6?

boo hoo to the child (later a straight A student with a special gift for science) whose mother happened to be dying during that year of her life?

This ^ perfectly encapsulates what is wrong with the selective system - you get one shot and that's it. A shocking waste of talent. We need a school system where there is free movement for children as and when they blossom and develop.

[TalkinPeace]

CorusKate
None of the schools in Hampshire have 6th form either
but there are colleges and colleges
hence why DD will be one of nearly 1000 students studying Maths A level at her college

and as somebody who uses Latin every week I wish I'd paid more attention to it at school!

[treaclesoda]

I would have previously been unwavering in my support for grammar schools but reading this thread and others is starting to make me see the problems with it.

I think my views were related to my own experience within the grammar system. I attended a large primary, in a deprived area, with masses of children who were struggling. The teachers did their best, obviously, but there was a lot of violence, a lot of disruption, and those of us who were academic really weren't pushed very hard at all. Most of my fellow pupils couldn't have imagined anything worse than being sent to a grammar school, where they would have to learn latin and study literature, therefore the idea of being devastated at missing out on a grammar place was not something I really witnessed, and not something I'd thought of. I don't know anyone who was devastated with their exam results.

I also think I've fundamentally misunderstood what comprehensive schools actually mean. I envisaged them like my primary where the entire class was of mixed ability and the more disruptive you were, the more attention you got, and if you 'got it' you were left to get on with it yourself. We weren't put into sets at secondary school, I suppose people were of broadly similar ability, so again the idea of sets and moving between them wasn't something I'd thought of.

But, my biggest fear with a comprehensive system here would this issue that I keep reading about in the media of catchment areas and only the wealthy being able to afford tonlive in tye catchment area of a decent school. To me that is much much more unfair than academic selection.

[Procrastreation]

Yes - we moved house to be in grammar catchment - because we couldn't afford to live in catchment for a decent comp!

[morethanpotatoprints]

Cory and Pointy

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but its just how I feel. My dh went to grammar school, typical working class, passed 11+ no problem.
I went to the crappiest comprehensive you can imagine. That's life, it isn't fair. Of course there are going to be parents who want their dc to attend a selective school, but everybody can't go.
My dc would never have passed an 11+ they are just not that academic, I would never dream of stopping the chance for others though.
Some parents buy their way in by extensive tutoring, this to me is wrong and I also agree that everybody should have a good education whatever the background.

[cory]

CorusKate Wed 19-Feb-14 19:02:25
"I think that not only do some children do better in a school-type environment, but that it helps the school as a whole to have a sixth form - an expectation that education continues past age 16, and a situation where it seems more normal to stay in school than leave at sixteen"

Is this really relevant any longer given recent changes to the school leaving age? For the present cohort of 17yos it is illegal to leave further education unless you have an apprenticeship lined up- and those are as rare as hen's teeth. Nobody is allowed to leave school and just walk into a dead end job with no training.

By the time the present Yr 9's get to Yr 11 the school leaving age will have been extended to 18.

[Procrastreation]

Actually - I'm a fan of sixth form colleges - because they give kids a chance to 're-invent' themselves, if they've got in a rut with their school friends. It's also a parachute for late blooming DC - a stepping stone to making best HE choices.

Less enthused by the trend for private school kids to slum their last two years, on the logic that Oxbridge interviews make more demands of private school candidates! (which loops back to my point: why does oxbridge struggle to recruit state school students? Not for lack of trying!)

[cory]

morethanpotatoes, I am thinking about this partly from my professional pov as a university tutor

I am not talking about children who never had the ability and never will

that girl I was talking about who was bereaved is pretty bright

so is the other child who was struggling with illness

both are now high achievers and likely to do very well in HE

so why should we as a country be deprived of what they might contribute just because they happened to be in a bad place during a few weeks of their childhood?

[TalkinPeace]

According to the DFE data set that can be downloaded from here
www.gov.uk/government/publications/gcse-and-equivalent-results-in-england-2012-to-2013-revised
spreadsheet is
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/274500/SFR01_2014_AT.xls
Table 16

Hampshire which has no almost Comp 6th forms
got 60% A*-C inc E&M
Kent which has a fully selective system got 63%

5 passes, any grade inc E&M Hampshire got 95.1 Kent got 94.3

whats called in teh trade statistically insignificant benefit of Selective schools or damage caused by separate 6th form

[cory]

CorusKate Wed 19-Feb-14 19:59:59
"That's true cory but I'm not sure the culture of leaving school at sixteen will be so easy to change. How many of the kids who would have left at sixteen before the new rules will enthusiastically continue studying and how many will make a desultory effort just to avoid getting into trouble, since they don't really want to be there?"

But if you already want to leave school why would staying at the same school make you more likely to study enthusiastically than going somewhere new and trying a different approach?

Ime (dd's former school friends) this is precisely the situation where colleges work well, for the kind of children who would have preferred not having to stay on at all.