child in conflict with teachers

[innercity]

DS is quite socially adapt, though quirky and with a slightly unusual sense of humour (just like his dad). His class had a succession of unlucky situations with teachers (lots of supply, teachers getting ill, going on maternity leave, etc). I supported him at home in his learning and he’s doing well.

This year the school finally cracked down on the fact that the class is behind (esp in literacy) and assigned two experienced teachers who do a job share. Now, the problem emerged that he is constantly told off by the teachers and is extremely unhappy. Literally every Monday he cries and doesn’t want to go to school (though he likes his friends there and wouldn’t want to leave). Still every morning there is a problem.

Today’s parent evening revealed the situation to be quite bad (I didn’t realize how bad). I couldn’t recognize DS in how the teachers were describing him. They had, I would say, no sense of who he is and painted a picture in which some arrogant little bastard is dismissive and rude – especially to academically weak pupils. I felt they’ve put him (and me) into a box “arrogant smartie” and were quite aggressive. Not a single good word about him was uttered. He is not at all the smartest kid in the class or anything like it and in fact he doesn’t have a very high self-esteem. He is quite quirky and I have to say we’re both foreign with a very different cultural background (to English) which can I imagine result in some miscommunication. For him, English is a SL. Still, the teachers pointed out how he finds it difficult to do group work with the weakest children (and remain positive and kind and approving of their ideas) – presumably because of having a very high opinion about himself.

The school is an inner city East London school in a relatively deprived neighborhood with a lot of disadvantaged and vulnerable children. It has a very good reputation and is very good in dealing with bullying; generally there is a very positive atmosphere.

I am totally confused about what to do. I feel that being a weaker and a disadvantaged child is better there than being a stronger and less evidently struggling pupil. I also think it might be quite difficult for a 8yo to always remain positive when he might not be interested / can get frustrated. I fear that he is punished for being bright and slightly unusual. I also feel he is being hammered into some sort of enforced niceness. Don’t get me wrong, it is good being nice and I enjoy people being nice to me which starts in primary school, but he recently told me that now he knows how to avoid conflict at school: never tell what you think but always say: “how nice, this is great”. I think this is awful if this is the result of schooling at the age of 8.

Sorry this is long! Would appreciate any opinions.

[cory]

Speaking personally, and as another foreign mum, I think the cultural difference thing is a bit of a red herring. Basically, he is here now, it is your job and that of the school to show him what will upset and hurt people in this culture. The fact that it might not upset and hurt somebody somewhere else is irrelevant.

But the main reason you should focus away from the cultural thing is that it is taking your attention away from the real problem: that your ds is unhappy and anxious. This is where you should focus. That should take all your energy. It does sound rather as if something has happened for him to change so suddenly and as if he needs help.

There are things the SENCO can do and even more so if the school has a qualified school counsellor. They can talk to him gently, find out what the problem is, help him to express his anxieties, help him to think of ways of handling his anxieties at school. It is well worth doing.

Having been seen by a psychotherapist will not leave any kind of record that could count against him in later years. Even if people knew (which they won't) they wouldn't care- it's incredibly common and not stigmatised in any way.

My dd has had frequent involvement from counsellors and the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service (severe anxiety issues); it's not something she has had to reveal to secondary, college, or will have to reveal when she applies to university. She tells people when she feels they need to know.

[flyingbebe]

Maybe you could ask the teachers to keep in touch by email/letters/home book so that you know before it gets to that point. It could suggest a way of communicating with the teachers regularly, like you said it's hard to talk to teachers after school now, so you can keep each other up to date.

[innercity]

I am also thinking if I shall home educate him for a while (I work from home a lot of the time).

[innercity]

Hulababy I was focusing on his anxiety - I thought that was the reason he was crying. I only realised it was so bad in school at the parent meeting - they never got in touch before and it's not easy to chat with the teachers after the school day anymore. I now spoke to both the teacher and SENCO. I didn't even know there was a pastoral care person in the school! I hope it changes things but - what would they do differently? Stop shouting at him?

[innercity]

Stupid question: if the psychotherapist makes a statement for the school or goes into school, what kind of record will it have on his file and how can it affect him in the future? For instance, in references for secondary schools if he is ever going to need one.
Can or shall I ask for it to be confidential? Any advice here? Thanks!

[Hulababy]

Are school aware of his anxiety and sleep problems, and that he is seeing hmeone for these? Have you spoken with the SENCO?

[innercity]

thanks, saved your message as it has a whole plan! thanks, will go and speak to the teacher

[smee]

Inner, I reckon if it was me I'd ask for another meeting with the class teacher. You could be positive, say clearly it's not good that they're having problems with his behaviour, but reinforce that it's not going to improve if he's not happy - explain about him crying every Monday. No good teacher will want to hear that. Talk to them about school/ home partnership as that seems to be a bit of a buzz thing in a 'good' school. Ask if you could have e-mail contact maybe for regular updates, so even if you don't pick up every day, could they let you know if there's been a problem/ they need to talk to you about something. I'd also ask if you could have a 3 way meeting for you - your son- the teacher to allow him to talk to the Teacher about how hard he's finding it/ them to say what's acceptable and agree a structured way through. All those things might help. Definitely worth being positive and pro-active though to reverse the trend. Hope you can sort it all.

[FishfingersAreOK]

Total arm-chair therapy here - he sounds scared. He sounds like he is trying to convince himself, and others that he is big and strong and clever - and not scared. He is not thinking about what impact his actions have on others - just on trying to make himself feel better. And if he has had a succession of teachers there is no-one constant there to make him feel safe.

So, quite possible what the teachers are witnessing and commenting on is correct.

I think you need to talk to the psychotherapist and the school and get them in touch with each other.

And innercity you are right, it is not what/how you see your son - or how he really "is" but if this is how his anxiety is showing at school accept it and work on moving forward. He is crying out for help.

Oh and BTW you do not sound like a twat to me - just a concerned mother who cannot marry up the son she knows with the son she has been told about.

[Alexandrite]

Cross posted. Sorry to hear that. I'd speak to the teachers about the trauma he experienced and tell them he is seeing a psychotherapist about it. Ask how you can work together on his behaviour

[Alexandrite]

Is there something that happened 9 months ago that has sparked off his anxiety and you both not sleeping? Could this have caused his change in behaviour?

[innercity]

Yes, he is seeing a psychotherapist for his anxiety and yes, he was traumatised by robbery that he witnessed.

[innercity]

Starballbunny do you speak from experience and see something in my post that suggests I shall change schools? I find it also very difficult to discuss this because I realise whatever I say - because it is on this issue I sound like a twat and people or so much do not discuss things openly here...

[noblegiraffe]

Has anything happened outside of school that has affected him emotionally? You say he has been suffering from anxiety for 9 months, so that's not caused by these new teachers.
It must be tough for you as a lone parent working full time, but it is probably tough for him too.

Have you spoken to a doctor about his anxiety?

[innercity]

Also I had a situation with his school in year1 when I was trying to ask the teacher what was wrong with DS as he was simultaneously bored and falling behind. That particular teacher - it was clear - put a label 'pushy parent' onto me (though I didn't know what it was at the time and I only recently had come to Britain) and bullied my DS (would tell him in class - "so, you're bored" and tear his work apart). Luckily she only taught him for one month. So I have experience of what it's like to be labelled as a parent and a child at that school.

[innercity]

I don't think he is unique or special, but he is sensitive. There are kids who are tougher, physically stronger and there are kids who are weaker. He is weaker than some others. I don't understand aggression in your post - I am trying to understand the situation and yes, I act as an advocate for my child.

I am a single mother and it is tough. I work full time and my son and I haven't slept properly for the last 9 months because of his anxiety. His anxiety is the problem.

The school though says he is rude to everyone not just the two children mentioned. I find it weird that he was always 'a joy' in all previous school reports and suddenly became a very problematic pupil. I think this is unusual.

[eofa1]

Being horrible to other kids is not a cultural difference, it's just being horrible to other kids. Teachers don't, generally speaking, enjoy giving negative feedback and if they're telling you that your son's behaviour is causing real problems then it probably is. I'd focus on helping him develop better social skills, rather than on how awfully special and sensitive he is, how the teachers just don't understand him, and how you need a school that better comprehends his unique nature. I don't know why you'd assume they've "labelled" him as an easy solution; giving negative feedback to parents who think their kids can do no wrong isn't the easy option... As another poster has pointed out, not addressing issues like this with him because you think the teachers must be being mean will do him no favours in the long run.

[noblegiraffe]

It would be unusual if both teachers, who you say are experienced, agreed in their opinion of him as arrogant and dismissive of weaker pupils if it wasn't an issue.

Would it be possible to sit in on a lesson to observe his behaviour for yourself?

[innercity]

I know there are kids who say 'I'll beat you on this' whereas they will never be able to and DS is not like that.

He is quite sensitive and this entire bundle of problems arose only as he entered Y4 and I just can't help thinking it's got to do with the teacher. Yes, boys change, have hormone rushes, etc but the personality can't change from July to September so radically!

Basically I just fear that if they choose to interpret him in that way because it is easier and it confirms certain stereotypes (as written above, you have to be self-deprecating in Eng; there is a dislike - as many people above indicated - of ppl who appear to think they're good at smth; so there is a cultural stereotype and the teacher just uses it) then however DS really is or however hard he tries, it won't change much - because he will have a label stuck to him.

[innercity]

Thanks for all replies. I realise it sounds like DS is arrogant and the teachers are right. To be frank, DS also has many difficulties (particularly with memory) and it took me a full year to teach him time tables (of practicing nearly every day). So he is in no way a child who gets things easily.

And I just have doubts.

DS never had such problems before. He was always liked by his peers and had good relationships with them. How come it just changed from year3 to year 4?

He also has anxiety and sleeps badly at night - he comes to school tired. The teacher shouts at them and snatches things out of their hands. I think he is distressed. The two pupils he has been rude to are weaker academically but the three of them have conflicts outside of group work - the two pupils choose to inform teachers on everything he does and the teachers take action on what those two pupils say. So the picture is more complex but I think that the teachers CHOOSE to describe it and see it in only in this way: he is arrogant, - they're not looking for other explanations. Also I feel that in that school if you're weaker academically you're de facto in the right.

The fact that he doesn't sleep at night and cries in the morning is only something that I see. Also - I understand he needs to learn to be positive and appreciative of other pupils' ideas and express things positively, but there also should be a room for cultural differences, no?

Also - yes, school and I are willing to work together to help him learn to deal with others positively, but my problem is - what if the school is willing to help him deal with problems that the school itself creates??? they don't seem to have any clue of what he is really. But they already labelled him and offer support to teach him handling social situations better - where he never had any problems in the social situations before and basically anywhere else...

Shall I just take him out - I suspect there might be some ethos of the school which doesn't fit him (or he doesn't fit) - or this problem will persist in any English state school and the only option is to sell my kidney and send him private (not the the money for the kidney will be enough :))

[Alexandrite]

It's unlikely the problem is that the school think being a weaker and a disadvantaged child is better than being a stronger and less evidently struggling pupil. The problem is that they have noticed him being dismissive and rude – especially to academically weak pupils. That's something you really need to work with the school on. I'd seek advice from them on how to deal with it. You'll be doing him a big favour socially if you help him with this and it might make him more positive about going to school.

[DeWe]

You don't have to be the brightest child in the class to be an "arrogant smartie", in fact, looking back there was a girl who could have worn that tag at primary. She wasn't the top, but she made a lot of us there was no point in trying to get things because she would point out that she was much better.

It's not so much saying "I am good at this", more "I am better at you at this" is the issue. That age do that, particularly the boys can be very competitive. I've seen one swear blind he was the fastest, even as he was overtaken... Then he told the others he hadn't run his best and could have beaten them all if he'd tried.

[Hulababy]

Without knowing what it is he is saying to those other children, it is tricky.

Can you give some examples of what he might have normally said instead of "how nice..." to give us a clue?

"Still, the teachers pointed out how he finds it difficult to do group work with the weakest children (and remain positive and kind and approving of their ideas) – presumably because of having a very high opinion about himself. "

He does need to learn to listen to other people's ideas and take them on board, and not only believe hsi own ideas are the best way forward.

[FiscalCliffRocksThisTown]

Also, kids learn a lot from helping weaker learners (it cements their own understanding, being able to explain things mean you really master them, IYSWIM).

As to the arrogance, could it contain a grain of truth?

Speaking as a foreigner with a confident Y4 boy (who has told the teacher she does not sufficiently challenge him….ahem), I find that in England it is extremely important to never say "I am good at this" or " This is easy". It is essential to be self deprecating if you are to be liked.

Also, 8 yr old boys can be tremendous show offs and can often do with being told to tone it down a bit.