Church of England wants better RE

[MuswellHillDad]

"Church of England attacks Michael Gove over state of religious education"

www.theguardian.com/education/2013/oct/05/church-attacks-gove-religious-education-schools

As an atheist, I'm delighted that RE is being squashed out of the curriculum and that kids leave school seeing religion as a "mystery".

Why can't churches keep out of school? I don't want Scientologists there or the Pope.

Discuss

[Inertia]

Blessed Hope - your comment about the godless having most of the state school system is somewhat disingenuous. Religious indoctrination is not (or at least, in my view, shouldn't be) the main purpose of schools - schools are there to provide a broad and balanced education. It'd be like atheists protesting that the religious had all the churches ( which is not to be sniffed at btw - lots of money, land and political power wrapped up in religious organisations).

If a religious organisation needs to commandeer the education system as well as its own system of worship and practice, that seems to suggest that it isn't really convincing enough on its own.

[pointythings]

Inertia - welcome to godless corner! Have a or two .

[MuswellHillDad]

Niminypiminy, so here's my first reference, but they'll be others, probably from the same book. Happy to take the flack for choosing famed agnostic Bertrand Russell as the source, but I have read History of Western Philosophy cover to cover and I think many would agree his account is a brief but authoritative summary and tour de force:

"The Catholic Church was derived from three sources. Its sacred history was Jewish, its theology was Greek, its government and canon law were, at least indirectly, Roman. The Reformation rejected the Roman elements, softened the Greek elements, and greatly strengthened the Judaic elements. It thus co-operated with the nationalist forces which were undoing the work of social cohesion which had been effected first by the Roman Empire and then by the Roman Church. In Catholic doctrine, divine revelation did not end with the scriptures, but continued from age to age through the medium of the Church, to which, therefore, it was the duty of the individual to submit his private opinions. Protestants, on the contrary, rejected the Church as a vehicle of revelation; truth was to be sought only in the Bible, which each man could interpret for himself. If men differed in their interpretation, there was no divinely appointed authority to decide the dispute. In practice, the State claimed the right that had formerly belonged to the Church, but this was a usurpation. In Protestant theory, there should be no earthly intermediary between the soul and God."

[niminypiminy]

MuswellHillDad, Russell's summary is indeed brief, does indeed sound authoritative, but is in fact simplistic and historically wrong.

Please excuse me, however. A family event has occurred that will mean I have to take a break from this conversation.

[Inertia]

Thanks Pointy, wine always helps when discussing religion.

Thinking about this, when people say "there isn't enough religion / RE in schools / society" they usually mean "there isn't enough of MY religion in schools / society".

[ErrolTheDragon]

OP, MN is a bit of a virtual tearoom - but there are quite a lot of people who like civilized debate rather than food fights . Dione is I think on the side of the angels with Niminy ; I'll happily admit to being a paid up member of the BHA and NSS and have no idea what a 'militant humanist' is supposed to be . Someone who doesn't accept the continuance of religious privilege in silence maybe?

[pointythings]

Errol, by your definition I am a militant humanist then. And proud to be one too.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I just tried entering 'militant humanist' in my google search bar and it asked me if I meant 'militant feminism' and gave me the links for that!

If google doesn't recognise it as a thing, does it exist?

[ouryve]

Perhaps a militant humanist is someone who doesn't want to live their life according to some fabled figure. Count me in.

[ErrolTheDragon]

That's just a 'humanist'. Don't know what the 'militant' part is supposed to signify.

[blessedhope]

Terence Copley's Indoctrination, Education and God makes a good case from the moderate Christian perspective that complaints about "indoctrination" by people wanting to keep education secular miss the mark because all school systems indoctrinate to some degree and for some purpose: it's a matter of what doctrine is to be promulgated, which makes things difficult in any society with more than one (non) religious and (non) spiritual viewpoint; even leaving religion out altogether and saying it's "the job of home and church/ place of worship" is powerfully indoctrinating children with a hidden curriculum of marginalization of faith in daily life- not to mention that matters germane to faith-based worldviews are discussed overtly across the secular curriculum in a way which must be "balanced" somehow.

For excluding faith from state education to be fair to those with a Biblical worldview or other paradigms one would need to at least cut massive holes in the so-called "social and emotional aspects of learning" programs, or abolish them altogether in a Bonfire of the Vacuities; one reason for my children being privately educated in a Christian setting is due to friends warning of a couple of (militant?) teachers at the local comp who have stretched SEAL to force children to waste two hours of their week allegedly in "enrichment of... intra- and inter-personal intelligences" through practices which encourage unlimited self-disclosure trampling upon their privacy and ours, promote New Age "relaxation techniques" and forms of "stress relief" with anti-Christian Eastern religious influences to ostensibly get kids through exams, and introduce sessions on "emotional literacy" where significant moral issues are discussed but pupils are told there is NO right or wrong answer !

Many mothers trust blindly that a school described as a "community" primary or comprehensive will be neutral on value-laden issues, not necessarily reinforcing what is taught at home but at least respecting it- then I realised what some teachers think they can get away with! And all too often when parents do complain they seem to believe they have a right to expose your dcs to anything just because they are professionals ...well none of THAT arrogance at the school dh and I chose . Shame that we have to pay for it in addition to paying the same tax money as state system users, and that good Christian (or Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc.) schools are few and far between.

The fairest thing to do IMO would be vouchers for private schools and more free schools approved (and non-Christian ones too; it is being suggested that Gove's team are employing discrimination in approval of proposed Muslim and Hindu free schools/ academies which are badly needed in our inner cities. After his efforts to downplay people of colour in History lessons I fear the DoE may be biased against British Asian community, which would explain above.) Those remaining in the state system would then have more competition and parents more choices so they would have to be honest about their own "indoctrination", however it was structured. As you will never find one philosophy of life which all British parents agree on their children being taught I cannot see any other way being fairer to people overall across religion/belief, socio-economic and ethnic categories. Trying to create a "neutral" common school system just leads to a few powerful groups setting the rules for everyone.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I don't think that's a strong case at all. It's just someone trying to justify the status quo of religion having a privileged position in our education system at the moment.

The most secular country I can think of, in terms of the state education system, is the USA. Faith doesn't exactly seem to have been marginalized there, does it?

No. Schools should teach children how to think for themselves, not what to think. They should equip them with knowledge and the means to apply their intelligence. That's not 'indoctrination' by any normal interpretation of what the word means.

[MuswellHillDad]

blessedhope

Wouldn't your scheme and such "choice" lead to even greater fraction and divide amongst communities along religious fault lines? I think the media is already trying scaremonger on this issue, but perhaps there's some fire to that smoke already.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Faith schools are already a problem for community cohesion in some areas. Segregating children according to their parents' religion is a really bad idea - think about Northern Ireland for a moment.

[MuswellHillDad]

NiminyPiminy

Second submission, from a Christian viewpoint, still acknowledging the Greek import but trying to derive that it came from Ancient Hebrews whose thoughts were, of course, seeded by God. It's one of those God put the dinosaur fossils there to make us think he's not there but really is because you "gotta have faith, faith, faith" arguments (George Michael tunes playing in my crazy atheist head )


One early Christian writer of the 2nd and early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria, demonstrated Greek thought in writing,

"Philosophy has been given to the Greeks as their own kind of Covenant, their foundation for the philosophy of Christ ... the philosophy of the Greeks ... contains the basic elements of that genuine and perfect knowledge which is higher than human ... even upon those spiritual objects." (Miscellanies 6. 8)

However, Eusebius' own Praeparatio Evangelica does not adopt the common notion (which occurs at least as early as Clement of Alexandria) of Greek philosophy as a "preparation for the Gospel." Eusebius instead offers a lengthy argument for the wisdom of the ancient Hebrews becoming a preparation for Greek philosophy (at least Platonic philosophy, see Praep.ev. 11-13). For Eusebius, the Greeks stole any truths they possessed from the more ancient Hebrews.

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

Nimmy has said she has a family emergency.

Christian thought was and is influenced by philosophy and that is one of the reasons why teaching religion and philosophy together makes sense.
It would be good if the philosophy of science could be taught at the same time as physics, biology and chemistry but trying to get children's heads around critical realism before break time is probably a bit much.

[alemci]

blessed I agree with you to some extent. I suppose your dc could have counteracted it to some extent by taking it with a pinch of salt.

some teachers do have their own political agenda often rubbishing our original culture and demonizing christianity. saving the planet seemed to be very topical and global warming and they are legitimate concerns.

[pointythings]

blessed your description of New Age relaxation and meditation techniques as anti-Christian is very entertaining... Many of these are drawn from Buddhist principles, and I can't think of a less combative belief system than that.

And I agree with Errol that dividing schools along hard faith lines would be bad for community cohesion, reinforcing the 'us and them' perceptions. It isn't working with the differing strands of Islam either - Sunnis and Shi'ites, anyone? As soon as we start seeing ourselves as other than 'fellow human being', we're in trouble and courting conflict.

I'd be very careful about promoting religious free schools as well, given the Al Medinah fiasco in Leeds.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Derby, not Leeds ...hopefully that will be a wake-up call for people promoting 'free schools'.

Alemci, on MN we hear far more often about teachers with their own 'agenda' who are presenting small children with Christianity as if it was The Truth. Whichever way round, they should avoid it.

I don't know many practicing scientists who have a lot of time for 'the philosophy of science' TBH... my DH did a course for the heck of it not so long ago and reckoned there was a bit of stating the obvious and a lot of waffle.

[MuswellHillDad]

"Little of the philosophy of religious thinkers is standing on the shoulders of Ancient Greek giants -- but I guess you would have to know something about the history of religion to know that."

When someone says I need to know something, I go and find out for myself, rather than take their word for it ..... sound familiar to any "born again atheists" out there.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts
I understand NiminyPiminy is busy, but this is public debate, so it doesn't have to stop. It will all be here waiting should they choice to rejoin.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I do hope she and her family are ok and she can rejoin us.

[niminypiminy]

(Popping in briefly to say thank you, and I'll be back when I can, though I'm sure things will have moved on!)

[MuswellHillDad]

Wishing NiminyPiminy and family well (having just seen a thread elsewhere).

[pointythings]

Very best wishes to you niminipiminy

[alemci]

yes I agree errol always want to call you ercol by mistake