Winchester- redrawing all its catchment boundaries...

[Tansie]

here

It is more 'ooi' but might it affect you?

I'm sure it will affect many. Bear with me here: I am thinking of the Romsey situation. Romsey is 8 miles from Winchester and 3 miles from northern Southampton which had some dire and seriously failing comps. 2 have closed and have been amalgamated into a shiney new religious sponsored academy (!). As a result, a fair few parents are sending their DC from northern Southampton to Romsey. This has meant it's harder for DC in 'outlying' villages to get a place in the Romsey comps if they're non-catchment and it will affect DC from across the county boundary, 6 miles away who fail the 11+ and who want a comp not a SM as the alternative. It has also meant (hush) that there have been a few more 'social issues' at the 2 Romsey comps as its intake becomes more 'socially diverse' with the Southampton kids intake. SO quite a few parents take fright and send their DC all the way to Winchester, to Kings. Also, where I live, our local secondaries catchments bisect the estate. One end goes to the best performing comp in the county, academically; the other to a school with some real issues. SO some of those parents also choose to send to either one of the Romsey comps or Kings in Winchester.

I wonder if that option will exist post this reshuffle?

[TalkinPeace2]

So true.
I was aware of school performance stats before having kids because of DH's PGCE and subsequent line of work
but yes the noisy MC stuff (like Cameroon asking this website to advise on policy when half the posters seem to have their kids either at Grammar or private school!!) is NOT good for social mobility

Seeing how the technocrats are sorting out politicians messes in southern Europe makes me even more sure that user led systems are indeed doomed to failure : and sadly our kids are the guinea pigs!

BTW I admit to going with the flow in not using catchment - BUT if the flow moved back the other way I'd not start threads on AIBU protesting ....

[LittenTree]

I don't blame you at all for getting your DC into MB rather than OA, Talking, but I was merely pointing out that OA is your local school, whatever you might say about MB, and remember you are the one proposing that DC get no 'choice' other than their local school!

It just might also be fair to say that perhaps Oaklands wasn't 'a reasonable school' back then, as much as a) you were, pre-DC, far less into the minutiae of achievement in schools and b) the barriers were much lower- you didn't need an Eng Bacc to get anywhere, like you do today! People accepted mediocrity in education way more than they do today (SMs, anyone?).

But I do agree that the academy thing hasn't been thought through. Personally, I don't want a 'community lead school' any more than I want a 'patient lead' health service, thanks. I would rather the government oversaw them both, in the absence of an impartial, apolitical Body of experts doing it! But even then, you'd get someone trying to Make A Name for themselves as A Great Reformer and experimenting with blue sky thinking then coming up with sponsored academies (and GP lead health commissioning...).

I don't look as the Winchester changes as a fig leaf in that they're not setting out to fundamentally change the way school places are allocated in Hampshire, are they, just 'fixing' a local problem? Which of course might have a knock on effect regarding what lengths parents might have to go to to get the ideal school. Someone said earlier something like 'first Winchester, tomorrow Southampton and Southern Hampshire' but I don't think so. The harsh reality is the MC parents are the ones deemed to have the power (cos they can be relied upon to vote), so it'd take a brave politician to take the Thorndens, Kings and even MBs away from them, whereas the shifting, disengaged 'masses' can, it seems be disregarded, their schools just hand-wrung over.

[LettyAshton]

Not many children getting off the no. 1 bus at Thornden from Southampton! I know people living in Valley Park who sent their dcs to a feeder school but failed to win places (went to Hampshire Collegiate instead). Some years children out of catchment do get in, but from as far away as Southampton? Not unless they pretend they reside with their granny in Hiltingbury (which apparently a few do).

[TalkinPeace2]

I could NEVER afford a house as big as I have in a better catchment (£100k difference for basically the same house with a MUCH smaller garden). I bought the house before I had kids and back then Oaklands was a reasonable school.
BUT then Bliar and Broon brought in 'sponsored academies' and we got the unaccountable idiots in charge of the place - hence the mass exodus. They took over two 700 pupil schools and are left with one 500 pupil school.

The LEA is barred from providing the places - new school have to be academies or free schools.
When academies go pear shaped - like Oasis Mayfield did, the LEA was utterly powerless to help.
And when the SMTs of the converter academies cock up, Gove's wallahs will have no idea either.

I would rather my kids were at a nearer school - but they are at least on the same bus route and so many kids from round here go up there that its effectively the local school!
And I was not willing to utterly jeapordise (we are not talking increments here) their academic chances for the sake of a ten minute drive each morning.

The Winchester rejig is a figleaf.
It will not cure the local or underlying problem - but the politicians will have been seen to do 'something'

[LittenTree]

Ah, I see what you mean, but I guess we're coming at it from different ideologies.

I wanted my DSs to go the the local secondary. So I moved into the catchment of the secondary I wanted to become local to . Just like would happen if there were no opportunities to send your DC anywhere other than the 'local'- if it were rubbish. Instead of madly bussing DC all over the shop where we could (and like I believe you do?), we'd move house, absolutely entrenching the conditions at the school (and community) we'd left behind, lowering the LCD yet further. And creating house-price fortresses of privilege for our own. In this way, schools will always be able to 'select' one way or another, and I say Thank God! It allows me to send my DSs to a good school where their education won't be disrupted by the unable and unwilling, bearing in mind the heinous state of SEN funding. .

If you think all DCs should 'go local', why don't yours? Do you think that Oaklands/Oasis would magically improve if the DC of a few 'more dedicated' parents returned? That it would 'come up PDQ' if it were de-academy-ised? Why? Some schools in certain areas are behind the 8 ball before they even begin if the local demographic largely, as a critical mass, exhibits the effects of poverty, neglect, social issues, single-parentdom-multiple-partners, addiction, violence, disrespect. It has been endlessly shown that, in the same way that educational outcomes for MC DC from 'good' homes with 'clever' mums are advantageous; the DC from the disadvantaged homes as described are 'in trouble' by the age of 3 (hence SureStart!). No amount of flinging money at the secondary that serves the area will really offer a long-term 'fix', will it?

LEAs do try to provide sufficient accommodation for all their DCs but that's hard when the government figures on which they rely come in half a million people short, and when, for instance, you have an uncontrollable and unpredictable influx from countries such as Poland. . Also, Kings expanded (apparently- but does it not have a PAN like every other school?) because of Cantell's issues. Well, there actually are enough school places, they're just not the ones people want!

As for educational policy being set by those with no experience of it, I'd offer a qualified 'well, yeees, but the fact is you can't satisfy everyone; you have every DC in the country to educate, the academy program was set up 'in good faith' imo, but has been allowed to be hijacked. I would certainly agree that all state schools should be secular, mind, but successive governments like faith schools because they 'do well'- why? because they select!

[TalkinPeace2]

The thing is Litten that Educational policy in the UK is almost exclusively set by people who have NO experience of State education.
All the 'parental choice' crap came from twerps whose parents 'chose' to send them away to boarding school.

This story www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19548597 in today's news shows how the policy is failing.

LEAs should be required to provide enough places (in buildings that will flex which years they handle) for EVERY child in their area.
That will allow for some off at private school and some moving around.
Children should go to the school nearest to them.
State funded schools should not be allowed to select in any way shape or form.
If religious types want a separate religious education they can pay for it (as is the case in the USA)
And parents should be forced to accept their nearest school OR the most undersubscribed school.

The problem with my local school - and its £14 million white elephant building - is a DIRECT result of poor Political decision making from the centre. If that was overturned, the school would pick back up PDQ.

And yes, its crazy that Kings had to add so many extra classes just because Cantell went into special measures six years ago .... Surely the money would have been better spent sorting Cantell than on more fuel costs for a few children.

[LittenTree]

Surely the fact is a school where the catchment has grown sort of organically, with some tweaking as a result of say large scale development, will tend to reflect its local demographic, though? Like there exists in Southern Hants and Southampton?

What I mean is that if you bussed all the DC from say Oasis, Lordshill, to, say Thornden and vice versa, it wouldn't take long before OA became a good school and Th a less 'good' one.

I've never understood the argument that 'good' schools should be allowed/forced to expand due to 'demand'. Surely most schools that are are 'good' have something exclusive about them, like academic or 'social' selection, or parental religious 'conviction' etc. If you expand the school much beyond that band of DC, surely you'd start getting a dilution effect of what makes a school desirable?

I fully understand the concept that every parent would state that they want 'the best' for their DC, but there'd have to be some sort of understanding that all 3 parties have to be on board; DC, parent, school, which might means for instance that a parent might be required to give of themselves to a degree that's either beyond them or beyond their actual desire to, when it comes down to it, iyswim.

As we've seen on this thread, there are some parents who are proactive in crossing boundaries to get DC into better fit schools (but seem rather aggrieved at having to do so, which flies in the face of the reality that where you choose to live will be highly likely to be reflected in the quality of your DC's school). The issue here will come when and if the Winchester catchment changes have a trickle down effect to say Romsey.

[TalkinPeace2]

Oasis WILL have lots of Poles - but they are still only up to year 5.
For now it has intake around 60 a year (capacity is 200), the remainder going to MB, Romsey, Upper Shirley, Redbridge, Kings, anywhere in fact!

And I do not ask the kids - I find the riding school, dancing school and other clubs to be a far more reliable source of who does what, backed up with good old FB.

Agree with chica about the top Th kids.

[chicaguapa]

Thornden does set. It just doesn't stream. There are also plenty of not bright kids there and Th does well on the value-added. But the top sets are really bright, which probably does reflect the catchment.

The council set the catchment boundaries so not sure what they'd have to gain by being so selective in the Th catchment to encompass the expensive houses if it were to be to Ty's perceived detriment. And some DC do get in out of catchment, but by the skin of their teeth on the sibling + feeder school rule. Anyway, afaik the only really expensive houses in CF are in Hiltingbury , then rest are all pretty much the same, north or south, Th or Ty catchment.

[Tansie]

Who's cory? Sorry, obvs not 'keeping up'!

I must say I admire your methodology, actually asking the kids on the school bus! I wouldn't have the nerve, esp in ascertaining if they were bright! And what's the number 1? Is that a bus number, you mean? I must say I thought that pretty much all of Th. catchment would be within walking distance, just looking at that map.

So what is the problem with Oasis? Its ethos? Behaviour? I thought it had a solid cohort of EU DC who were 'bringing standards up' (though I may be well misinformed about that one!)

[TalkinPeace2]

Oasis became an academy in 2008. It moved to its new building last week.
If you are not already aware of what is wrong with Oasis - bearing in mind Cory and I have discussed it openly at length - I suggest you check the pages of the Echo.

Its easy to tell where kids live - ask them and see who is on the bus
and yes Thorndedn do not set but that does not take away knowledge of how many bright kids arrive on the number 1.

MC kids will on average do better than lower class for well observed and researched reasons. Read the grammar threads or those on maternal qualification for the solid evidence.

Southern Hampshire is very lucky - even the 'bad' schools are above the national average.

[Tansie]

lapucelle- most of the grand ole houses in northern Ch Fd predate Thornden on its present site by decades!

I gather that, 10 odd years ago, you could have gone to Th from Basingstoke, or some such! It's only been recently that its catchment has become a ring of steel. WHY is it so popular? As in a lot of Winchester, currently, there appears to have been quite a lot of in-fill development in Ch Fd; you know, one house being knocked down/ 6 units replacing it. That had the effect of shrinking the catchment down (or up, maybe I should say!), so actually, Th's catchment, like most under consideration here, evolved over time. And if you did an oval straight to the south of Th, you'd pretty much immediately actually encompass Toynbee school itself! Do the same slightly eastwards, and you'd swallow up Crestwood School! All the secondaries in this area are actually within a stone's throw of each other, close to the M3; and, as there is no school to the west, where would those north western DC go?

It might be fair to say that the Th catchment encompasses a higher-than-average house price but a fair slice of Toynbee and Crestwood's does too. And practically all of Winchester!

[Tansie]

Talkin- I am genuinely curious as to how you know where all these DC live... the same source as the Thornden catchment 'gerrymander'? Sorry!

And 'top sets'.. Th doesn't set, so you can't mean that one. It's a major 'sales point' apparently. It has a very different ethos to, say, Kings in that respect, but I guess it's impossible to get into Th from out of catchment, I'm told, so possibly has no 'Southampton' DC in it.

I would have to take a bit of exception to the idea that the DC whose parents send them 'away' to school because 'they care' would automatically boost the results of that 'better' school. It sort of implies MC= cleverer. I would say you'd be likely to get better behaviour in a MC school, for sure (hence my earlier remark that some MB-going friends' DC comment on how much more 'trouble' has been generated from, in their opinion, a few Southampton/Oasis 'refugee' DC, and what 'a' Head' told me, also face to face).

I mean, what's actually wrong with say Oasis Academy? And how long has Oasis been open, ooi? I was wondering about the '100 DC per year' loss the Head told you about. I thought it opened last week, but I really don't know!

I suspect the big housing development in Romsey will have some sort of knock on effect first with Romsey Community, then MB- it would have to, really, I guess. I wonder if all that will tie in with the Winchester thing or whether that's merely to make a 4-16 school at WG, nothing more?

[lapucelle]

I don't see how I am contradicting myself. The catchment boundary does not circle all the expensive houses with only cheaper houses excluded outside. Unsurprisingly, but the previous poster implied that this is what the boundary did. However the catchment surely catches a higher average house price than if it was pushed a bit south or if it extended directly south from Thornden in a vertical oval rather than a horizontal oval, iyswim. So I could find it plausible that it was carefully chosen though I don't know the history.

[TalkinPeace2]

Tansie
Top sets at the three schools I track have all got Southampton kids in them. The kind of parents who make the effort to get their kids over the border are by nature higher aiming and achieving. The head of Oasis told me to my face that he loses 100 children per year group out of his catchment over the boundary. Chances are those are NOT the lower ability children.
So yes, the schools outside the boundary DO get higher scores because of incomers.

Its the same as the thread where we looked at the DFe data for Merseyside and the fact that some LEAs are losing a quarter of their pupils and thus getting dire results.

There are several hundred MB kids who live within walking distance of Oasis both inside and outside Southampton ....

[green12]

How would they go about 're-drawing' the catchment areas? Would they start from scratch, start with a ring round each school and then adapt as necessary or shrink and modify the existing catchments to leave space for a new one?

[Tansie]

Perins is no more a Winchester secondary than Thornden is!

I think you'd have to be careful about redrawing boundaries across local authority boundaries, too. You'd get into all sorts of funding and responsibility issues. Whilst I can see that say the location of the new Oasis academy in Lordshill places the school right on the edge of the catchment, and on the very edge of 'Southampton' that's just where the building land happened to be, isn't it? They could just as easily have built it in Millbrook. So in reality, the DC aren't actually as such driven past Oasis to go to MB, they live the 50m away necessary to find themselves in the catchment of MB and the convenient site of their bus stop might be close to OA.

Similarly, Thornden used to be housed in what's now the Fire Brigade HQ on Leigh Rd, Eastleigh (and Toynbee used it after them!). Th. now sits on the edge of its North End (geddit?) catchment- but why would you move its catchment south at all?

Lapucelle says: "On the other hand I do agree that the shape of the Thornden catchment magically catches all of Hiltingbury, the fancy houses on the outskirts and the top part of Valley Park where most houses are 300k+. If you moved the same shape catchment south, the average house price would drop by 100k or more, I reckon. (Just not in the part where I live.)"... -sorry, but you're contradicting yourself. We are to believe that the Th catchment is 'posh', the Ty one isn't , you live in the Ty one but your house is worth more than those in Th.....

And what's 'magical' about a school situated in the north of an area serving the DC who live in the north of the area? Would it make any sense to bus southern DC through the north end of Ch Fd whilst the DC of the north end went 'elsewhere'?

Talkin- 'the fact that the schools around Southampton do disproportionately well because 10% of Southampton children cross the boundary ....' are you saying the success of the out-of-Southampton schools is due to the 10% of Southampton DC attend them?? I'm not sure I quite understand that one!

I can see that the whole catchment thing will be vexed and that there will be no easy answers. But making every DC go to their geographically 'nearest' wouldn't solve the issue- in fact, as has been mentioned, it might exacerbate it!

[sleeze]

Yeah - true it is small. I just find it quite amusing how Perins is so often ignored. It is a little gem. It is the smallest of the Winchester secondaries, usually gets better results than WG or HB, is great for sport and is getting better and better at performing arts.

[Lemonsole]

Ah, true. But it's weeny! 12 pupils each year, no? Although many of those families would dearly love to in the closer Perins than catching the bus, no?

[sleeze]

Depends what they do about Itchen Abbas which is currently HB feeder.

[Lemonsole]

Unlikely, though - as none of its feeder primaries are affected by the new school. The redraw is to allow for the 60 extra kids going to WG.

[sleeze]

Alresford is 9 miles from Winchester, so quite a different area and catchment.

Well yes, but Perins is still considered a Winchester secondary so will probably be included in the redrawing of catchment areas.

[Lemonsole]

True. Though I guess that, whatever the system, people will always try to circumvent it.

Abolishing the raw data-based league tables as the be all and end all will be my first change. End that need to channel DCs into what makes the school look good instead of into what is good for them would be a breath of fresh air. Sure; monitor that they're getting the basics, but let schools get on with enabling learning instead of cramming for the sake of tables.

[TalkinPeace2]

Lemonsole
www.ampfieldcofeprimary.co.uk/news.asp
still ticking along - thing is there are not many young children living in the houses round there even though its a GORGEOUS place to go to school !

Yes my daft idea WOULD cause differences between schools BUT they already exist - the fact that the schools around Southampton do disproportionately well because 10% of Southampton children cross the boundary ....
And remember that with no 'catchments' per se, the boundary between schools would move every year depending on the ages of children so to some extent it would even out.
Kings Worthy will always be poor, Abbots Worthy will always be richer but the number of 11 year olds in each cohort will be what affects the school intake, not where the house is ....

[Lemonsole]

How are Ampfield's numbers these days? Does it attract parents wanting to be in a link school for one of the Romsey schools?