The Novelry, and I'm getting in a tangle.

[WonderfulCheese]

I have two questions which might be linked.

I've been writing the story I've had in my heart for twenty maddening years. I really believe in it, but I'm in a tangle.

I've got about 100k words. It's probably a cross over book: adventureish theme but doesn't talk to the reader in a young way, so I'm not honestly sure where to categorize it (the bin??)

100k might well be overlong but it can of course be trimmed.

The problem is I need to read the whole thing each time I start up with it. Which now takes ages. I'm utterly lost. There is a gap where the final battle/climax should be. For some reason as I read and try to make notes, I can't manage to out together a coherent summary. Is this normal? What's wrong with me 😂

My second question then is, I was thinking about doing a course of some kind to get it over the line. I always dreamt of an MA but they are now utterly out of reach. As a straight, white female there are very few bursaries as many target under represented groups.

So, just recently facebook has shown me an ad for The Novelry. My question is, has anyone any experience with this? It seems to promise that if you pay the fee and do the work you have a 60% chance of being published. The question that jumped to mind was immediately, how can they claim that, what if you just haven't got what it takes?

I also saw an advert for something called "immersed in story". But I'm really wary of all of these Facebook adverts. Does anyone have any experience of that one?

Thank you very much.

[everythingcrossed]

I was intrigued by the claims that you reported the Novelry made so I've just looked at their website. It is implied that 60% of the Novelry's clients' manuscripts are taken on by literary agents (not published) which seems... optimistic. It could be, of course, that TN only allows a small fraction of the people on its courses to submit but even so.

There are several tabs on the Literary Agents page of its website which should give details about the process, agencies that TN works with etc but, when I clicked on them, all that came up was Latin dummy copy. This makes me rather suspicious

[WonderfulCheese]

Oh I'm disappointed! It costs 3k and you're supposed to get quite detailed feedback on your work.

[OctoblocksAssemble]

Watching with interest. I haven't heard of either of those, but it does seem a bit suspicious.
My first novel took 7 years, I put so much time and effort in that making big changes felt impossible. I now realise that if I did want to get that one published I'd have to do some serious pruning and restructuring. I decided to write a new novel instead of fixing the old 😏.

Have you actually written the ending? I found that doing so really helped me focus on what the main themes and events I needed to prioritise in order to get the resolution I was looking for, if that makes sense.

[WonderfulCheese]

I kind of know the very end, but it needs a really good climax, which is missing so far, and top of my head I can't even pin that down because I lose the thread of the story when I read it.

I'm one of those people who will watch a film and forget the plot within an hour. Yet I purport to be clever and so on. I've fooled everyone!

I suppose what I need is for another person to read it, however years ago a couple of people asked me to do just that and I hated doing so. Hated their writing, and hated having to feed back. (One was sort of porn though which made me want to run for the hills)

My story is of course U rated, but I don't want to put anyone through that misery.

As an aside, @OctoblocksAssemble my children are watching numberblocks as I type 😂

[BookwormDadUK]

FWIW I found Between the Lines by Jessica Morrell a really helpful book. All the advice I read said 90k is your limit for a novel unless you're JK Rowling and earn the extra.

I think my novel is blooming brilliant. However I've zilch marketing skills and I've had boxes of my self-published masterpiece in my shed for 6 years.

Good luck, I hope you enjoy finishing it.

[OctoblocksAssemble]

@WonderfulCheese I wanted Octoblock on a rocket, but it was taken 😂.
Have you thought about using any critique sites? I've used Scribophile, and got some very useful feedback, but it does cost to get the best out of it. There is a free version though. If you find the right novel swap partner then reading their work isn't arduous. It is very much about finding someone with a WIP that actually interests you though.

[Lougle]

@WonderfulCheese have you submitted it anywhere? I think I've seen people say they have sent an outline and the first 3 chapters. It might get some valuable feedback?

Tbh I think publishing is very pot luck. I've just finished a book by one of a publisher's 'big hitters' and I had to absolutely drag myself through it. Despite all her attempts to create mystery and drama from the very beginning, even at the climax I felt very underwhelmed. I bet an unknown author wouldn't have got it in front of a publisher in the first place.

Twenty years is so dedicated. I hope you get it published some day.

[WonderfulCheese]

Yes, I've submitted to maybe three agents. The response was, this is lovely but we're small and so really picky.

Not really any feedback, though I was braced for that.

[WonderfulCheese]

Underwhelm is what I want to avoid.

Scribophile sounds like a good shout, thanks, I'll take a look.

[everythingcrossed]

I used Critique Circle on the recommendation of another MNer. I found it very helpful. It's free but you need to earn credits (by critiquing other contributors' writing) in order to post your own. It's friendly, supportive, surprisingly few twats on it.

[Squiblet]

Not sure about the Novelry but there are plenty of freelance editors out there who can help you work out where your novel is going. Look for one who is a member of a professional association such as the CIEP (UK) or EFA (us) - they vet their members, so you can be sure the editors are legit.

Developmental editing doesn't come cheap, though, especially for a 100k book. But it might be worth getting a few quotes. You'll get much more useful help from a professional fiction editor than you will from unqualified readers. Good luck!

[strawberryfieldsforjustoneday]

I know someone who has used the Novelry feedback service. They're very happy with the feedback but they haven't yet reached the point of submission so I don't know what will happen then.

[istara]

My advice for people with a "ten year baby" is to put baby in a drawer and write your second novel.

Come back to your baby with a lot more distance and experience, and you'll have much better perspective on it.

And if you do realise it's not (yet, anyway) as good as you hoped, you've already got a second baby. So not all your eggs are in one basket.

Plus these days, if you want to be successful commercially, you need to keep writing and publishing multiple novels. The average novel sinks without trace, no matter how good it is, which is heartbreaking if it's your only oeuvre.

[Peasnbeans]

Try some developmental editing of your own - it will help with plot.
Look at the book 'Save the Cat! Writes a Novel'. It will break down your story structure and you can divide up your narrative into the sections, to see if you have the 'beats' in the correct (ish) place.
Also read - 'Story' by David McKee, and 'Lost in the Woods' by John Yorke. EXCELLENT books on structure in storytelling and film.

[InfiniteTeas]

The Novelry is a legitimate consultancy with a good reputation. I know two of their tutors, both experienced and respected writers and teachers, and I recently met an author whose debut novel was begun on a Novelry course and is now published and doing very well. I would imagine they would ask for a sample of writing and advise as to whether a particular course is appropriate. They may also suggest starting a course with a brand new project, rather than bringing in an existing one.

[ChaoticCrumble]

Some people will labour over a book for ten years and it will be magnificent
Some people will labour over a book for ten years and it will be a learning experience

I did this! By the time I finished it, I was so proud and sent it loads of places to no response. Eventually I realised it was rather dated and not what the current market wanted.

BUT that was me and my book - I don't think I truly believed in it when I finished. As long as you can be honest with yourself it can be worth at least finishing.

But there's something to be said for starting something fresh.

[WonderfulCheese]

Thank you so much. I do really believe in it, maybe I'm old fashioned though. It doesn't contain angst, there are no references to the colour of anyone's skin, or their sexual preference, or blended families. The parents of the main character are dead, but that's a bit of a trope common to stories like this purely because living parents would rather "get in the way".

[Squiblet]

Does the main character have a strong goal?

And do the secondary characters also have goals of their own?

[WonderfulCheese]

The main character is pulled into things by a secondary character, whose goal is to oust a tyrant who killed her father. As things unfold MC discovers things about his own past.

Unoriginal, I know, when told like that, but as with all stories the originality comes in the telling I suppose.

[Squiblet]

Sounds good! The goals of the characters - how they conflict and coincide - are more important than the other factors you listed above.

I'd second @Peasnbeans recommended books above - all excellent primers for story construction. And if you only have time for one, try Into the Woods.

[meringue33]

Hi @WonderfulCheese I’d be happy to read the first few chapters of your novel and give feedback if you like.

[meringue33]

Btw I’d recommend the Faber Academy courses, they are really good.

[WonderfulCheese]

@meringue, that's really kind, I'm not sure I'd want to burden you, and I think I know what you'd say about it 😏

[meringue33]

I’m trained in constructive criticism. We could swap and you could give me some feedback on the first chapter of my YA novel. PM me if you’d like to but no pressure 🙂

[OwlWeiwei]

Hi
I'm a literary consultant (and don't worry - I'm not touting for work, I don't specialise in fantasy or YA) and can promise you that having an incoherent summary is a stage in the process.

I advise clients to get a massive piece of paper - either a roll of lining wallpaper or an A1 flipchart and make a chronological time line - even if some events are prehistoric and some events are futuristic. Literally set down in columns what happens in the order in which it happens. A time line.

That way you can easily see where the gaps are, what you need to add where, chronologically.

Then using post-its or index cards make a note of of each scene or chapter in the novel in the order the reader reads it. Number them clearly and attach them to the timeline. This will show you where you have time clusters, where you have gaps and when might be a natural point in the novel to add any info that needs to be in there before the great denouement.

Another tip: if you need to add essential info and your novel is already 100k, don't assume you need a new or long scene in which to do it. Incorporate it into an existing scene, or add a sentence here or there.It is surprising how effective this is. Plot can be told very simply. It's the richness of character, location and theme which flesh it all out.