GP giving vaccine to his mate

[LoafEater]

So an acquaintance of mine has told a mutual friend that his friend, who is a GP in out local area, called him up at the end of a vaccine session and invited him down to the surgery to get a 'leftover' vaccine. He went and had it, and is telling people how delighted he is about it.

This acquaintance does not really work (independently wealthy/lazy), is in his mid-50s and has no health issues. I am livid. My brother lives in a care home has not had the vaccine yet, and I know lots of other people, myself included, who are working front line jobs or have health conditions that won't be getting it for a long time yet. I see from the press today that this seems to be happening all over. I suspect, knowing this man, that this was pre-planned rather than a last minute thing.

Don't know why I'm posting this really as there is nothing that can be done about it now, but I found out about this last week and I am still so cross!

[Frazzled2207]

@PilatesPeach
thanks for explaining and for volunteering too. I am trying to but caught up in the rather OTT online learning atm. Pleased your hub has a good system set up for spares.

[bendmeoverbackwards]

You're cross because one more vaccine has been administered and will reduce the infection rate for ALL??

Unbelievable OP

[Rachie1973]

This is all over Facebook too, I just think better in an arm than in a bin.

I work in a care home, no way could we get those residents in within a small time space, everything has to be planned including transport and carers.

In the meantime one less person that could potentially take up an ICU bed.

[Sethy38]

This acquaintance correctly assumed you would get worked up and highly agitated by this.

So they told you and achieved what they set out to do

[Wheresthebeach]

@TuttiFrutti

In other countries (I think Israel?) you can ask to go on a standby list, and queue up at the back of the hospital or doctor's surgery so if there is any unused vaccine at the end of the day, you can have it on a "first come, first served" basis. A bit like standby theatre tickets - you might be queuing for nothing, but you take that risk.

Apparently in the UK we didn't want to do that because of the risk of social distancing in queues. So obviously there will be some unused vaccine at the end of each day, because some people don't turn up. The doctors can either throw it away or use it on themselves/admin staff/their mates, and I'd rather they did the latter.

A stand by list is a much fairer way of doing it. People close to the vaccination site could be notified to come in at end of day to avoid waste. Or queue up. Managing a socially distanced queue isn't hard. Our GP did it for the flu vaccine as the queue was around the block!

I don't want it wasted, but 'phone a friend' isn't how this is suppose to work.

[Rachie1973]

@PilatesPeach

I am a volunteer at a vaccine hub that currently does the Pfizer only and not every day due to supply issues. I am not medical. I stand outside in the car park for 3 or 4 hours at a time doing marshalling.
There is a reserve list. Some of the booked appointments do not turn up. The reserves are contacted but this may be towards the end of the day and they might not answer the phone or be able to come or have transport etc. Some reserves do come though. The other week I too had a leftover dose (no side effects btw) an hour after the hub officially closed whilst we were tidying up etc as it would have been binned and further the hub was not opening for the next few days due to no supply. I would never expect to have a dose ahead of anyone on the appointments list or reserve list who was able to attend but yes I had my first vaccine in those circumstances and felt extremely grateful. I am group 9 on the priority list. I volunteered for this as my work sector is shut and when I did volunteer it was before the rollout started so there was nothing about left over doses.

Well done for volunteering in this cold weather!

I’m actually really pleased that you got vaccinated, we need the non clinical staff/volunteers healthy to continue helping!

[Frazzled2207]

@TuttiFrutti

In other countries (I think Israel?) you can ask to go on a standby list, and queue up at the back of the hospital or doctor's surgery so if there is any unused vaccine at the end of the day, you can have it on a "first come, first served" basis. A bit like standby theatre tickets - you might be queuing for nothing, but you take that risk.

Apparently in the UK we didn't want to do that because of the risk of social distancing in queues. So obviously there will be some unused vaccine at the end of each day, because some people don't turn up. The doctors can either throw it away or use it on themselves/admin staff/their mates, and I'd rather they did the latter.

i could quite believe that if there was a system like that here there would be long queues and potentially not particularly behaved either.

I know part of the NHS in wales are now setting up an official standby list - inviting those that are in the 70+ who haven't had it yet and can get there at short notice to put themselves on the list. Yes they'd be getting it soonish anyway but if they manage to get some reserves in then that frees up another appointment further down the line.

[randomsabreuse]

The problem is if you're dealing with a maximum of 20 minutes before the vaccine expires you need someone you know is close and almost certain to come. You don't have time to phone several people until you find one who can come, especially if they're likely to be elderly and chatty.

I suspect there's a different procedure (involving priority list type things) for extras as a result of early no shows where you've got an hour or more until the expiry time Vs last minute extras (any suitable body will do).

Single, non working adult in lockdown is very likely to be available, parent or keyworker not so much. It would take me at least 40 minutes to get to the drs (5 minute drive) because kids.

My in-laws used take a good 50 minutes to leave the house when they were regularly going out. I dread to think how long it would take them now as they've barely left the house for a year!

[SlightlyJaded]

I actually agree a bit OP.

Obviously wouldn't want it wasted, but receptionists could quite easily draw up a list of local 'Plan B' patients who would benefit from being vaccinated sooner rather than later, and call each day to put a couple of standby so no time wasted at the end of the day.

[catlady3]

Think the anger would be better directed at a system that seems to be creating a lot of waste of a precious, scarce resource at the moment.

[Coffeeandaride]

We've vaccinated all our over 80s. The oxford vaccine lasts 6 hours from opening. It is supposed to supply 10 vaccines but sometimes there is an 11th (but you cannot rely on this being present until all 10 have been given). So it has happened we have had a spare few at end of clinic. We ring other patients. We haven't made a reserve list as people then self select. Instead we call people who are due to start chemotherapy soon/ CEV /and on occasion have vaccinated a spouse of housebound >80 year old whilst we were there.

I imagine most surgeries are doing similar. My surgery not much of a story/gossip so this information won't spread.

[Butchyrestingface]

This acquaintance does not really work (independently wealthy/lazy), is in his mid-50s and has no health issues

Why is it "lazy" not to work if you're rolling in it? If he did work, doubtless there'd be people moaning about some moneybags taking jobs away from poor people who DO need the money.

Anyway, agree with PP. Better he gets it than it goes to waste.

[Poppingnostopping]

Once you have to start monitoring and ringing and administering another standby list though, that's extra work. The idea from Israel of allowing people to queue for spare vaccines isn't bad at all and we queue outside our drs with social distancing.

Bureaucracy to make everything fair doesn't always work to make things quicker. A friend of mine is NHS ward staff although no current covid patients, she had to fill in a form, get her manager to sign off the form just to be put forward for vaccination. The more paperwork there is, the slower it is, not saying they shouldn't record having given it but you don't want to restrict the flow if you can help it. One spare dose after closing time is neither here nor there.

[RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling]

^I wouldn't even be arsed if they went in prisoners arms f the alternative is the bin...
Why they haven't set up teacher phone trees for the spare is beyond me.^

Even prisoners? Prisoners are extremely vulnerable to outbreaks of the virus, and should absolutely be among the priority groups, alongside people in carehomes who are vulnerable for similar reasons (i.e. close quarters, congregate settings).

And not just because the staff might bring the virus out of prison and into the community. But because prisoners are human beings, every bit as human as teachers, and their lives are not worth less. They are not one step up from the bin.

[notalwaysalondoner]

I agree it would be better if it was 'fair'. But what system would you propose that doesn't involve crazy amounts of bureaucracy and government spending? Obviously in an ideal world they'd have a big waiting list of people in the next category down to come in and get it early, or super vulnerable people needing a second dose. They'd call them and they'd come in and get the jab. But that would require a huge amount of admin to make the list, someone or probably multiple people to call everyone to have them ready and waiting at the end of the day, admin to take people off the list of people waiting for the jab as they've then been given it unexpectedly, plus crowd management if people came in expecting to get the leftover jab then actually there were fewer jabs at the end of the day than expected. I can see why the government just left this to GPs to manage to be honest.

[SlothMama]

I'd rather that dose go into an arm than the bin, it's one more person vaccinated at the end of the day.

[notalwaysalondoner]

Although I must admit, as someone whose cousin has a 10 year old with cancer, it is frustrating she isn't on any priority list to get vaccinated and can't somehow get prioritised for a spare vaccination...

[Rhiannon13]

Surely anyone offered it would take it rather than see it go to waste?

None of my clients have had the vaccine yet even though they're all in their late 80s/ early 90s. I'm a care worker visiting many homes every day and haven't been offered it either. Perhaps they're all going to 'friends of friends' of GPs?

[Thimbleberries]

At my surgery, it very clearly says that people who get sent an appointment letter but can't make it on the day (show symptoms, can't travel, etc) are NOT to phone them. They will be contacted again if they don't show up so that the appointment can be rescheduled. So there are bound to be leftover vaccines, if the GPs don't even know who can attend or not. Seems as good a way to deal with it as any, if they can get people there at relatively short notice.

[QuothTheSlothNevermore]

We have the same thing at our hospital, sometimes at the end of the day there are a handful of vaccines left over, so rather than waste them a general call is put out so that anyone who hasn't had their first dose can come and have it then. They then cancel any appointments they already have later on, which frees the vaccine up for others who haven't had one yet.

Over 50s are still in a priority group and would have had a vaccine in a couple of months - so now someone else will be able to have his vaccine later on. Sorry, don't see the problem.

[Walkingthedog46]

Who cares who they give the left-over dose to? Rather that than wasting the precious vaccine.

[DianaT1969]

I wouldn't care if GPs grabbed people walking past the door.
We're only around 7 weeks into the vaccination programme and already over 6 million people have had it. That will help reduce transmission (tentative results from Israel) and reduce hospital admissions. Your brother's care home/GP will make sure he gets it.

[Wheresthebeach]

My GP sends me texts all the time, confirming opening times, reminding me that they are still open for 'normal' procedures, I get a text with a link to a survey after each nurse or GP appointment.

I think they could create a small list of vulnerable people, close to the surgery, who have expressed willingness to come in straightaway. The list would probably be kept quite small, 10-20 people. Just send a text saying come in within the next 15 minutes. After all, if they are calling mates and family they have the time to call a willing person on a list.

[Frazzled2207]

@Wheresthebeach
Absolutely, just a small list then once they’ve got through them all come up with another one

[wildraisins]

As others have said it's better than it going in the bin.

But as people have also said, there should be a standby list of eligible people who are happy to be called on the fly if there are doses leftover.

However, that does take admin time and resources and it might not be as easy to implement as some people think. Calling down a list of people at 5pm when the surgery is about to shut, and arranging for someone to come in, is not all that practical or easy. The reality is that the NHS are really struggling at the moment and we can't expect everything to be perfect and ideal, so maybe we should cut them some slack.

If they haven't been able to sort out their admin then priority should still be that the vaccine is used rather than chucked.