Can someone knowledgeable explain to me the risk...

[Bubblesbubblesmybubbles]

Firstly we have NOT broken lockdown once as I am a stickler for rules but I don't judge others unless I deem something stupid.....

Been reading the 'broken the lockdown' thread and I wondered can anyone explain to me what the risk is of visiting someone (whilst on your one walk), in their garden where they have left the gate open for you, taking you're own supplies, sitting say 4m apart, having a chat and leaving. Its against lockdown, yes, so we haven't and I will continue to be one who sticks to the rules but I actually can't see the risk. Loads of people have done it and it seems to be helping the mental health of others at (what i imagine to be) no risk of health issues.

As I have spotted people we know whilst on our walk and had a socially distanced chat which I'm guessing is allowed, or maybe not

[LittleFoxKit]

This was going so strong till this :
The NHS death figures aren’t the same as the ones the media give either

Well ofc the nhs figures are different to the ONS figures, as not everyone dies from Covid in hospital. People have died for Covid at home and in care homes. Hence the figures will not be the same.

Also dont follow this
posters here who need to look at science rather than government ads by adding a news article. If "we" need to look at the science then post the science. Unfortunately as someone who regularly reads scientific journals, newspapers are most definately NOT the paragon of scientific knowledge or even accuracy/truth.

[Kokeshi123]

You are not going to catch or pass on COVID19 outdoors unless we are talking crowd-type situations, where you end up stuck next to someone breathing in their droplets for minutes at a time.

When all this is over, one of the big things that is going to come up during the post-pandemic autopsy will be "Everyone wasted a lot of time worrying about things that made no difference, while ignoring much bigger dangers that were right under their noses."

[Gwenhwyfar]

"I also dislike the no sunbathing/sitting on grass rule. If you're socially distancing and sitting alone, what is the big deal? "

If you're genuinely alone is an isolated place then nobody would see you sunbathing to disapprove or tell you to move on. If you're in a place with other people, there is the risk of crowding and it means people are out for longer than if they were just walking.

[Flaxmeadow]

Highly likely the people further away who caught it from him touched the same spot on the door handle.

No they hadn't. There were separate entrances into the church room I think? This is the interesting thing about it.

The theory is that because they were all singing, including the man with covid19 who would have forced more air out than usual as he sang, they took deep breaths in and so more likely to have breathed in tiny particles containing the virus in the air.

[Bramblebear92]

If you'd read my whole my post, you'd see that I've acknowledged the distinction below. And who says National Trust parks are for picnics 🤔 Reality is that 'non essentials' will open eventually. I'm just acknowledging that certain 'non-essentials' did not need to be closed, as they may have been helpful to people struggling with their MH and could easily adhere to the social distancing rules etc. But I suppose I should remember that happiness and pleasure is something that should never be associated with this lockdown (and never again according to some MNs )

[yearinyearout]

A man had covid19. He went to church and the room was packed with a large congregation, all singing and so breathing in and out quite forcefully. He managed to spread it to people he was not sat next to, or in some cases not even sat in the rows around him.

Highly likely the people further away who caught it from him touched the same spot on the door handle.

[yearinyearout]

There is no risk to what you've described OP. They've just had to make the "rules" simple. I was already social distancing before the government made it mandatory because I'd been reading about covid and the problems it was causing abroad.

I've been visiting my dm (also taking her shopping) and sitting outside her house for half an hour for a chat. DF had to come to mine this week to make some funeral arrangements and I did exactly what you've described and left the gate open for him.

I've been meeting friends and walking over two metres apart (it's no different to being out and keeping two metres from strangers although half of MN would shout about it)

As a result of doing these things, it's been much easier to bear, and I'm happy to continue social distancing for as long as necessary.

I do wonder if others who've been slaves to the rules will suddenly go batshit when things are relaxed and have a party with their friends. There seems to be a large contingent who can't seem to make reasoned decisions for themselves based on science and facts and just need to be told what to do.

[OneInEight]

Current opinion is that this virus is transmitted either by touching a contaminated surface e.g. if you touch a surface that an infected person has recently touched (recent as in a few days) or by breathing in aerosol from an infected person (there is thought to be negligible virus in the air if you are two metres away - presumably it ends up on the floor). Most of this is based on scientist's best guess rather than actual proven knowledge which is why different countries have adopted slightly different regulations.


So sitting in a garden with someone should be pretty safe providing you maintain distance. Any activity where you end up touching something that someone else has recently touched will increase your risk so things like sharing prepared food, sitting on garden benches, using someone else's cups or crockery, using the loo, touching door-handles. This risk will be reduced by avoiding touching your face and washing your hands frequently.

[milveycrohn]

Some of the rules are a bit abitrary.
Apparently the WHO recommend 1 metre distance.
Many countries in Europe say 1.5 metre. We, of course, say 2 metre.
Some councils have closed parks, or ribboned off seating.
You are allowed to exercise, but what exactly is exercise. I was a bit astonished to discover relatives were going on 10 mile walks, others on long cycle rides, or long 10 mile runs. But if you live in a country area, a 10 mile walk could be safer than queueing at Tesco.
I am not religious, but am puzzled why churches are closed. (I thought they were mostly empty anyway). OK, I am really puzzled why funerals have not been allowed. Why family members at a crematoriam is OK, but not at a church.
It is OK to form a long queue outside the supermarket, but not sit on your own on a beach

[Bubblesbubblesmybubbles]

I have no plans to change what we are doing (I'm heavily pregnant!
). It was sheer curiosity as I've been trying to geek up as much as possible as I like understanding things.

Neighbours have had visits as i described, and as single older people it seems to have boosted their mental health no end.

We are in a very very low infection rate area too so I think that impacts decision making. I know of no one with it or who has been impacted, not even through tenuious links. That said as an anti social bugger it doesnt bother me as there's no one who would visit anyway and I'm very lucky to be happy with my immediate familys company

[Flaxmeadow]

I would try to keep a big distance but also to try to talk quietly as well. Not easy but...

I've mentioned this before, probably more than once.

The people in the church incident.

A man had covid19. He went to church and the room was packed with a large congregation, all singing and so breathing in and out quite forcefully. He managed to spread it to people he was not sat next to, or in some cases not even sat in the rows around him.

This virus is very contagious. Why else would the whole world be in such an extreme lockdown situation? Why would governments go to such extreme measures if it could only be caught by being right next to someone sneezing or coughing or by touching surfaces? Because its airborne

[greenlynx]

I would say: try it and update us afterwards on what went not to the plan, because something definitely will.
People will ask for tea/milk/ sugar, go to the toilet, move chair closer as it’s sunny/windy/difficult to hear. They would ask to see something you’ve bought recently, borrow a book, whatever. They would accidentally pass you a plate or touch your gates on the way out.

Of course some people are able to stick to the rules but they
won’t go for garden visits atm unless absolutely necessary.

[LilacTree1]

waffly seems likely. Hope they both have a speedy recovery.

[wafflyversatile]

4m is better than 2m. There isn't some invisible forcefield at 2m.

[wafflyversatile]

Lilac tree yes to living alone. No to big supermarket shop. She did go to a couple of small shops. No deliveries. Theoretically it's possible she got it elsewhere but visiting the person who tested positive within a couple of days of the visit seems most likely. Wouldnt you agree?

As I say consider your risk profiles before visiting anyone.

[qweryuiop]

@bol87, I agree with the overall sentiment, that @Unravellingslowly is catastrophising, but you're not totally accurate.

You can pass on a virus without coughing or sneezing. It is thought that one of the reasons that covid 19 has a high transmission rate is because it can spread easily through surfaces. The whole thing about touching your face is because everyone does, all the time, and therefore if they are carrying the coronavirus, they've almost certainly got it on their hands and over their clothing (there was a fluorescent snot experiment that demonstrated this really well).

So for the OP, there is a small risk on sitting in a garden chatting to a friend, which is from anything they touch. If they have the virus(highly unlikely), they could pass it on to the wall or garden furniture, and if the virus is on the surfaces(highly unlikely, though the more visitors, the more likely this becomes) they could pick it up. However, the chances of this are small, and the viral load would be small (possibly too small to multiply and cause then to have any need for an immune response).

I'd suggest limiting the number of friends you visit, and the number of things you touch (with any part of you, not just hands) when you visit, if you want to keep the risk low while still visiting a friend.

I deliver shopping for a shielding friend, knowing that there is a tiny risk of passing on the virus through packaging and bags. However, alternatives the friend going shopping (definitely higher risk) or starvation (not ideal). I do increase the risk by standing chatting to her when I deliver, but we're both keen to take this very small risk to improve our quality of life.

[Flaxmeadow]

I also thought the WHO 1m recommendation was widely known.

I dont entirely trust what the WHO says, and I'm not the only one

I see I’m not the only person to comment on your post

Yes I know. It's not the first time I've noticed how there are groups of people on mumsnet who seem to all pile on at the same time

[LilacTree1]

Flax I didn’t pounce, I can only say I thought it striking that you blithely said you had no knowledge but thought 4m was better. I also thought the WHO 1m recommendation was widely known.

I see I’m not the only person to comment on your post.

[Flaxmeadow]

WHO says 1 metre.

The WHO also said there was "no human to human transmission" as people in Wuhan dropped like flies and then weeks later that the situation was "stabilised" as the numbers soared out of control and spread to Europe

[Flaxmeadow]

This member of SAGE- who advise the government- doesn’t believe on 2 metres, lord knows where you got 4 metre from

I didn't get it from anywhere, I said "more like". Ive seen other experts say 6 metres would be preferable. Not sure what your point is or why you always seem to pounce on my posts like this

In my opinion 2 metres is a compromise because anything more would be unworkable, especially in an urban area. The amount of spacing achievable in supermarkets etc would have been taken into consideration when deciding the distance

[EvilTwins]

I'm not a medical person but I believe the virus is so contagious that the social distancing measures are a compromise. That the ideal distance would be more like 4 metres but because people have to shop for food, a 2 metre distance was the only workable way of doing it. Especially in an urban area



WHO says 1 metre.

[LilacTree1]

Flaxemeadow

This member of SAGE- who advise the government- doesn’t believe on 2 metres, lord knows where you got 4 metre from

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/05/07/government-has-terrorised-britons-believing-coronavirus-will/

I’m sorry but there’s quite a few posters here who need to look at science rather than government ads

The NHS death figures aren’t the same as the ones the media give either

www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

[LastTrainEast]

"You can cram people into Tesco Metro, but National Trust Parks etc. MUST be closed"

Because people have to buy food, but they don't have to go for a picnic.

I'm glad to help those who missed the 50 times that was explained

[Flaxmeadow]

As I have spotted people we know whilst on our walk and had a socially distanced chat which I'm guessing is allowed, or maybe not confused

I'm not a medical person but I believe the virus is so contagious that the social distancing measures are a compromise. That the ideal distance would be more like 4 metres but because people have to shop for food, a 2 metre distance was the only workable way of doing it. Especially in an urban area

[LilacTree1]

Waffly “ A friend caught it by visiting a friend and sitting in the garden what they felt was far enough away from each other. The friend works in a care home and tested positive then my friend also came down with it.”

Just out of interest, was your friend otherwise isolated? Living alone, no shops, no deliveries etc?