British death toll highest in Europe

[SistemaAddict]

Covid-19: British death toll now highest in Europe
via The Irish Times
www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/covid-19-british-death-toll-now-highest-in-europe-1.4245336

This has made me so sad and angry. Why are we the worst? Why did we not learn from other countries and why do so many people (on here at least) think that we can get back to relative normal now?

[GoatyGoatyMingeMinge]

Hi @effingterrified (I like the name!),

Maybe my footballing metaphor wasn't very clear, but if you want to compile a league table of deaths by country you need to wait until all the results are in.

And really the only way to assess it is by excess mortality - in other words how many more people die over the next few years than we would expect. That will account not just for those who die in hospital with covid19, but those who die of it at home and those who die from secondary effects (eg other illnesses that have gone untreated and because of the upcoming recession). It also strips out those who would have died anyway.

(Some of us also think a higher rate of death would be acceptable if we can limit the economic damage, and that won't be a calculation that could be made for a long time.)

[effingterrified]

You're baffled why this thread is still going?

You don't think Britain having more deaths than anywhere in the world apart from a country with 6 times our population size is like...something to worry about?

If you don't think this is important, what precisely DO you think is important?!

[The80sweregreat]

I know the NHS has more ppe and more capacity ( so we're told) but I'm wondering why we have to still protect it? They even came out the other weeks to say ' come in if your poorly' ! If we all do the right things then they should be able to get the people in that are ill.
We've all done our bit now and I hope they have the right equipment etc now but the message shouldn't be protect it now it should be ' we can cope' ( unless we're told otherwise)
I'm a big supporter of them and grateful and i know it's been shit for them.

[GoatyGoatyMingeMinge]

I'm baffled why this thread is still going! Isn't it a bit early to declare the full-time score? We're five minutes into the first half.

[MinkowskisButterfly]

Because we’re not admitting people to hospital until they’re at death’s door so we can ‘protect the NHS, which I’m getting sick of hearing to be honest - we should be protecting our people too!

^^This, along with a few other things.

[effingterrified]

Germany has done very well.

Meanwhile, our government is the laughing stock of the world for how badly it's dealt with this.

Absolutely shameful that Boris has caused the highest death rates in Europe.

[ToffeeYoghurt]

The media has a lot of power. When mainstream media choose to focus on an issue it gets a lot of attention and very often leads to changes and revisions being made to policies.

The media has a moral responsibility to highlight the issues. It's only going on because few of those in a position to challenge are challenging.

The media focus, on the day our shamefully high death figures topped Europe, was on somebody who has warned against premature end to lockdown being ever so coincidentally caught with their pants down.

Scientist Angela Merkel has the same message as Ferguson. So far she hasn't been found in bed with someone other than her husband. Perhaps those who think Ferguson's still valid advice is wrong just because he ignored his own advice might like to believe her instead.

Germany saved many lives, and it will have a quicker and easier economic recovery because of their excellent handling of the pandemic.

Media attention should be on the failure to treat patients in time, the refusal to give drugs to save lives unlike other countries, oxygen often given too late because patients are admitted too late, and the ongoing lack of PPE - with the devastating consequence of many HCP dying.

The government wants to start ending lockdown on Monday. But still continues to do very little to protect lives or the economy. We could've safely eased lockdown on Monday had our government sorted out the mess at the start of lockdown.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

That's true. I remember the relief all round when the New Scientist got a question.

[RancidOldHag]

Why has the mainstream British media, for the most part, been so uncritical of the handling of the crisis?

Because science reporting is not done well. Science journalists get elbowed out and we get the bigger names whondin'r kniw what they're talking about, and they look to the politics of the handling and seem to expect more definitive answers that evolving science can provide.

Only occasionally are their more thoughtful pieces, such as today's Reuters piece on the UCL study into various strains.

With different variations in circulation, then with more study we might find that a) difference in death rates depends on exact strain/s in that region at the time b) a milder strain could have been in circulation for a while late last year before the more serious strain/s emerged c) a vaccine might need to cover more than one strain

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Some have. Names etc. But I've only just started reading through.

Maybe that could be the first informed complaint?

[WatcherintheRye]

I haven't seen any myself, but is it the case that the SAGE documents now available for scrutiny have been heavily redacted?

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

But we can start to read the SAGE documents and see what they were discussing. That way we can have an informed discussion, instead of conjecture and party politicking..


Not saying any post here but the general tone of most discussions.

[KenDodd]

The reason our press are so uncritical is because they've all nailed their colours to the Tory cross. Billionaires media owners hiding money in tax havens can't afford to be critical of the Tories otherwise some other government might get in and make them pay their tax. Tories and billionaire tax avioders need each other. Plus the loyalty of the Tory voter is pretty much guaranteed, I honestly don't know what the Tories would have to do before people stopped voting for them. These are the people that delivered Brexit, we can't question their competence.

My prediction is that press and politicians will turn on the scientists, (not the data scientists or behavioural scientists so beloved of Cummings) the medical scientists and they'll take the blame. Meanwhile Cummings mates, Ress-Mogg and his lot will make a fortune out of the crisis, it'll be an even better money spinner for them than Brexit.

[WatcherintheRye]

Dr Richard Horton, editor in chief of The Lancet medical journal, is even more damning: "The handling of the COVID-19 crisis in the UK is the most serious science policy failure in a generation."

A quote from a pp's link to worldwide media coverage above. Why has the mainstream British media, for the most part, been so uncritical of the handling of the crisis? That is not its job, surely? It's like critical opinion has been closed down. Even the daily press conferences have never had questions that weren't easily answered by the same tired old phrases. I'm guessing they were vetted.

Am currently listening to R4, More or Less, where for the first time I have heard someone confirm that the only reason Matt Hancock was able to 'meet' the 100,000 tests per day target (on 1 day) was by changing the goalposts to include tests popped in the post, rather than tests actually carried out, which was the previous benchmark. Apparently a significant number of the tests in the post didn't actually have returns labels. It doesn't take much digging...

[ToffeeYoghurt]

Very easy for hospitals to be managing when they're not treating patients.

And our very high death rate, which is one of the highest, if not the highest, in the world (not just Europe), matters. It matters because it's a tragedy and includes avoidable deaths.

People are being left to die at home or only admitted at late stages when survival is less likely.

Other countries are treating early. With antivirals, precautionary antibiotics, oxygen as soon as needed. It makes a difference.

We need to follow suit. We could safely ease lockdown if we got on with getting more PPE, accurate testing, and drugs and equipment to treat early.

There's no return to normality or a healthy recovering economy when half or more of the workforce are off sick. Or dead. We can't go back but we can act now to get what we need for a safer easing of lockdown.

And do people really want a Heatwave Lockdown? Because that's likely what we'll get if we ease the first one before we're ready.

It shouldn't be too hard to get what we need to safely end it. Other countries have. Some of the drugs might be in short supply so we'll have to wait for more to be produced but we can get enough oxygen, other equipment, and of course PPE in the meantime.

[excitedmumtobe87]

I don’t know many people and I know six people who have had it already. Three incredibly poorly, two very poorly, one not too poorly. Luckily no deaths of close friends or family... although I am worried to hear 10 have died in our local care home because I often chat with the residents on the bus and about town to see how they’re doing. I live in a rural area.

[excitedmumtobe87]

Looking at population density of the country doesn’t tell the whole picture. You need to look at density of areas. While U.K. overall is denser than Spain or France, their cities are far denser than even London. So when it takes hold on European cities it can spread very quickly.

This is more nuanced than we realise.

[DippyAvocado]

While the exact data is not clear, the trends are and it is apparent that we have been very badly hit. The mystery is why the government is not being completely hauled over the coals in the media. The rest of the world's media looks on in disbelief at what a shitshow it's been. Views from the papers in:

Australia

USA

Hong Kong

And those are just from the English language media.

At least Boris didn't suggest using Dettol, so that makes him maybe only the second-most useless leader in the world. (Although strong competition coming from Brazil too).

[milveycrohn]

I am puzzling trying to understand the data.
There are so many deaths, yet, although I live in London, i do not know anyone who has had the virus, let alone died from it.
The main hospitals seem to be managing, without using the nightingale hospitals very much. I am inclined to think that many of these deaths will be those living in care homes.
I also agree with earlier poster, who wondered whether we were treating people early enough with oxygen. Rumour is that people were told not to call an ambulance until far too late.
A New York doctor said patients declined suddenly.
This certainly inspired me to buy an oximeter (to measure oxygen in the blood).
Not sure if it as accurate as hospital ones, but at least it is a guide.

[Growingboys]

To be fair, Italy's is almost certainly higher than ours.


www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-mortality/italys-coronavirus-death-toll-far-higher-than-reported-stats-office-idUSKBN22G1WM

[KeepWashingThoseHands]

Obviously it's related to lockdown discussions as there are many on MN who would like it lifted (I am not one) - which will increase infections and death rates. There are people right now flouting lockdown regardless of what the govt does.

To reiterate I am not defending the govt or it's actions and on other threads have been highly critical. I am merely highlighting it seems likely to me a calculation has been done on economic impact vs deaths. You can disagree with that and get upset at what the govt has/hasnt done but as stated here we don't know the numbers and also won't know if more people will die of poverty in Italy in 5 years.

Looking at today's figures and comparing is totally pointless.

[CherryPavlova]

It matters because lives are more valuable than foreign holidays, haircuts and fashion.
It matters that ineptitude cost more lives than are featuring the daily briefing.
It matters because we repeatedly changed the guidance and left key workers vulnerable; whilst my took the kings shilling and has to accept the level of risk he faces, our daughter didn’t opt into poorly resourced high risk activities and neither did many who died.
It matters because we ignored the advice to act sooner.
It matters that there are two sets of rules and the outcomes depend on who you are.
Avoidable deaths matter enormously; otherwise why a Gosport review, why a Mid Staffs report, why a Morecombe bay report?
We simply cannot accept avoidable deaths are collateral damage.

[Selmaselma]

If the UK ends up being the hardest hit it is a demonstration that the UK government is not looking after its citizens properly. I can't see a direct connection to any lockdown related discussions.

[KeepWashingThoseHands]

Totally agree with all the posters highlighting the lack of comparative data. So yet another thread on it is pointless.

Secondly, what does it matter if the UK ends up being the hardest hit? No deaths are good and it would be great if we had zero, but we don't. Do you think that somehow changes the mood or govt policy - cos I don't think it does either, rightly or wrongly.

We already know the numbers and there's thread after thread on here with people disagreeing on when lockdown should be lifted.

A small group of people know what the death to economic impact formula is and I don't think decision making is much more complex (although horrible) than balancing that in all honestly.

All any of us can do is manage our own risks best we can.

[CherryPavlova]

Other countries recorded all deaths from a much earlier date. They had the information because they tested.