Will the vaccine be mandatory?

[CathyandHeathcliff]

When and if there’s a vaccine, will we all be instructed to have it?
I don’t get the flu jab and never have.

[BurgerQuean]

I also agree that it won’t need to be mandatory because there will be sufficient uptake from those who aren’t antivax to create herd immunity. Those who refuse it will largely be protected by those who don’t.

It’s fine to be frustrated about that (as am I), but there’s no point in talking about sanctions and removal of access to the NHS. The entire founding principle of the NHS is that it treats everyone equally, regardless of how ‘deserving’ they are. It doesn’t matter if you need medical treatment because of your own poor decisions, or how good a person you are; drug addicts, alcoholics, smokers, antivaxxers, murderers, rapists, etc are all equally entitled to treatment and that’s exactly as it should be.

[bellinisurge]

You also have a duty to not take actions which are injurious to the community. Which refusing a vaccine on non- medical grounds is.

[catwithnohat]

Twice, as a child, I was immunised, and twice suffered a Guillan Barre type reaction resulting in neurological damage - think wheelchair needs as an adult.

No way am I having a third one. I'll just have to take my chances.

[HistoryHeroes]

I find it unlikely, but think that most people will want it! Hence herd immunity.

Better that than continuing to lockdown forever in case it'll kill you.

[awkwardbuttons]

I agree you can't refuse healthcare access. Other free public services like schooling is a different matter, as seen in the US. Very effective way to encourage vaccination but there is an alternative for those that really don't want to without medical reason.

[Selfsettling3]

@whatswithtodaytoday because vaccination your child again CP makes them more at risk of developing sever shingles as an adult.

[bellinisurge]

@HistoryHeroes but because of stupid selfish twats in my area there is no measles herd immunity.

[NailsNeedDoing]

Totally happy for you to refuse the vaccine as long as you cease using the NHS, state schooling, taking a state pension visiting National parks free community spaces or any of the other benefits of our society.

If you become boss of the country, does that mean I get to stop paying tax too if I decide not to have the vaccine?

What happens if lots of teachers decide they don’t want it?

[BurgerQuean]

Other free public services like schooling is a different matter, as seen in the US. Very effective way to encourage vaccination but there is an alternative for those that really don't want to without medical reason.

I agree that this is effective, and may be justifiable if there is a legitimate risk to children in the school (for example if there is an immunocompromised child who can’t have vaccinations). The problem with it is that it is effectively punishing children for the actions of their parents, and condemning them to home education from people who will teach them inaccurate and misleading information about vaccinations. At least if they are in school they have the opportunity to learn how they really work, and then once they are older make their own decisions about them.

[SwerfandTurf]

Unless you are intricately acquainted with the process used to bring a vaccine to the mass market how can you deduce one created faster will be “untested”?

Well said.

The ignorant armchair experts need to stop scaremongering. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[okiedokieme]

Hopefully not, I never consent to new vaccines (not anti bacterial, just like them tried and tested!) 2 vaccines have been introduced and withdrawn in recent years as it had side effects.

[DuchenneParent]

I would get it, and vaccinate my children who are able to have it, but I don't agree with forced vaccination, I see it as a human rights violation.

I am not a vaccine expert, but I can understand the concern that there would be no historic data and the vaccine would not be going through the usual rigorous clinical trials that other new medicines have to undergo (and drug trials are terminated all the time over safety concerns). Acknowledging that concern doesn't mean you are anti-vax.

And of course this is an emergency situation so I think most with concerns would understand why they should strongly consider having the vaccine anyway. This should be a grey area discussion, not black and white.

[PrinnyPree]

Yes it should be mandatory, perhaps we can dart gun antivaxxers (who don't have a medical reason for turning down the vaccine) like in a wildlife documentary to protect the herd.

I really don't want to be in isolation forever because of antiscience numpties who get their information from facebook memes.

[awkwardbuttons]

The problem with it is that it is effectively punishing children for the actions of their parents, and condemning them to home education from people who will teach them inaccurate and misleading information about vaccinations. At least if they are in school they have the opportunity to learn how they really work, and then once they are older make their own decisions about them.

True in theory, but the reality is that faced with the inconvenience of home schooling almost all opt for vaccination if you look at the US statistics. The rest may well have home schooled anyway.

The chickenpox vaccine leaves you at reduced risk for shingles but higher risk for chickenpox if it wears off. Of course you could just get a booster and then you aren't at risk for either.

[BelleSausage]

@WakeAndBake

Did you read the link. Article 5 states that the right to consent can be suspended if there is a need to prevent the spread of disease.

Try again.

[bellinisurge]

Why is requiring you to act in the clear interests of the community (which is consequently in your own interests - enjoying lockdown are we?) contrary to human rights?
Grow up.

[BelleSausage]

@meditrina

You obviously didn’t understand it then.

The WHO have declared a pandemic. There are over 65,000 dead (probably closer to 100,000). Now is absolutely the time to invoke the suspension of that clause. Now is exactly the scenario it was designed to be used in.

Your freedoms cannot come at the expense of the population as a whole. I thought that was clearly understood about human rights laws. They aren’t meant to protect the individual at the cost of society. They are meant to protect whole groups of people from unjust persecution.

Using human rights laws as a stick to beat a government in a time of national crisis completely undermines the whole system of human rights.

[Whichoneofyoudidthat]

Surely it will be like every other flu vaccine? Not compulsory? I mean it’s well and truely out now and will come and go and mutate etc which would mean the vaccine would need to be updated annually?

[DuchenneParent]

Bell, I made it clear that I WOULD get the vaccination, so there is no need to be rude. No I am not enjoying isolation, one of my children (all are fully vaccinated) has a terminal condition so he is missing out on so much opportunity to experience the world.

How would you force someone to receive a vaccination? Not just incentivise it with state school and other services, actually force them? That's not really clear to me, and I don't understand how this could be done without breaching someones bodily autonomy. If you can explain this to me in a reasonable way, then please do.

[bellinisurge]

This. is. Not. The. Flu.

[awkwardbuttons]

Human rights prevent the individual from the tyranny of the majority. The question is whether mandatory vaccination is an acceptable breach due to exceptional circumstances. I would say no but I would limit some access to public services excluding healthcare if a healthy person refuses.

[BurgerQuean]

Your freedoms cannot come at the expense of the population as a whole. I thought that was clearly understood about human rights laws. They aren’t meant to protect the individual at the cost of society. They are meant to protect whole groups of people from unjust persecution.

That’s not strictly true. The purpose of human rights is explicitly to protect the rights of the individual against persecution, even when that persecution is sanctioned by the society as a whole. The concept was developed in part as a response to the Holocaust, where the rights of individuals were completely stripped for the ‘benefit’ of the society.

Human rights can be suspended for the benefit of society but that is decided on a case by case basis, and it has to be demonstrated that the suspension is both necessary and proportionate. It may be that our government decides it is necessary and proportionate to force specific individuals to have vaccinations to protect society as a whole, but it is by no means a given that this would happen, and personally I think it’s unlikely.

[meditrina]

I do not think you have understood my posts properly, and I apologise for lack of clarity.

It definitely is a human rights issue, but in exceptional circumstances, the suspension of human rights can be legally justified. That is what I was intending to illuminate.

Shami Chakrabati has also spoken publicly about this, though not specifically in a mandatory vaccine context. She is worth listening to on human rights.

There always nshould be considerable and grave deliberation before the suspension of any human rights. This is not 'a stick to beat' - it is at the very core of human rights. They are not optional, whatever is going on, and they should only ever be suspended in accordance with the treaties and law.

We cannot know what will be happening in the 18?? months time when a vaccine might be available, and whether suspension of consent to medical treatment will be justifiable on that issue at that time.

[Cabinfever10]

I really hope that they make it compulsory for all except those who have a valid medical exemption.

@WakeAndBake do you believe that the MMR causes ASD? If so please let burst that bubble it doesn't ASD is hereditary.
My dad has it (never vaccinated).
I have it (single vaccines).
My son has it (MMR).

[LynetteScavo]

I think people will be advised to have it, but if you're not in a high risk group you'll have to pay for it, just like the flu vaccination.