Dream Birth Location?

[SophieJaneC]

Hello everyone!

I'm an architecture student at Bath University and am currently designing a Birth Centre. I'd be really grateful if anyone has had their baby in a birth centre or is going to, why they chose the birth centre (or Midwife Led Unit) over a hospital or home birth?
Was there a feature that you particularly loved or even hated?
Or if you decided against a Birth Centre, what was your reason?

Basically, if you could design your dream environment to give birth in, what you you pick?? Even if it's on top a mountain in the middle of nowhere, I'd love to hear!

I'm very grateful for any responses!

Thank you

[Prettybaffled]

I agree with your last paragraph entirely. We all need to honour each other's choices. That includes the choice to see birth as an agonising ordeal (which some do) or to see labour itself as a life affirming amazing experience (which for me it was despite all the dramatics with blood!)

I don't think anyone ever encouraged me tacitly or overtly to compete with other women about birth.

I told you I was a feminist to explain that my disagreement about whether a particular mysogenistic narrative was key was not down to a knee jerk of 'there are no mysogeidtic narratives'.

I don't call really find this thread absurd. I think it will actually be useful to op to be able to reflect on how different expectations of and understandings of/wishes for birth are. Op it would be very interesting to hear whether any of this has been of use in your project of attempting the impossible of designing something that would be liked by the majority of birthing mothers.

Good luck with your design op!

[FuckOffDailyMailQuitQuotingMN]

This thread is turning into an absurdity if it wasn't already one.

Prettybaffled Yes, I agree entirely that birthing and women's oppression is not simple, I think you will find that if you read the article in the New Statesman that the author also cites feminist writers who describe ultra-medicalised births as being quiitte negative. (I am not sure that she characterises them as misogynistic but misogyny [and worse] is definitely implied if not said overtly).

You say that you are a feminist, I can only assume that this is because you think I am positioning myself as a feminist - I just want to clarify that I am not posting "as a feminist", I am interested in feminism but I wouldn't say that any part of my life is a feminist ideal.

The point is that no matter what space women carve out for themselves in birthing ("natural", medicalised") etc, they are encouraged to fight over the best way to give birth. That in-fighting is pointless, disempowering, fractious, and oppressive. A woman's body isn't public property for everyone to have an opinion on just because she is pregnant!

The most radical position seems to be to allow women to make conscious choices as individuals about their own birthing and support each other in those choices and not glorify our own choice to the detriment of other women - either in medicalised birthing or in freebirthing or the million places in between.

[randomsabreuse]

Being bipedal is our main handicap to giving birth easily... well that and the fact that we have to give birth head first rather than arms first so that little bit of extra assistance requires gadgets rather than just a gloved hand pulling gently on a wrist to stop the baby going back in.

In the large quadrupeds the birth canal is much straighter which helps. Because of this and smaller heads relative to bodies 10% of mother's bodyweight is normal...

[ComputerUserNumptyTwit]

The human body is, in comparison to other mammals (including other primates) rubbish at giving birth. Our babies are born really quite prematurely in comparison to other mammal young, because otherwise they simply wouldn't make it out through our narrow hips. It's one of the downsides of being bipeds.

Denying that is pretty misogynistic imo.

[FuckOffDailyMailQuitQuotingMN]

By god, ispy you are so desperate to be the victims here, it's breathtaking.

[FuckOffDailyMailQuitQuotingMN]

Yes, it's great to see how people are warm and responsive to someone who shares their joy unabashedly, isn't it?

Maybe it's because the OP hasn't adapted the idea of frebirthing as a sanctimonious religious belief that she can bash other women over the head with and tell them they are doing it wrong.

You share your story with joy and happiness, good for you. You share it as a demonstration of how other women fail, shame on you.

[ispymincepie]

Finding it pretty interesting how there's an active thread about a BBA (born before arrival of 'professional') and there are pages and pages of 'you hero', 'you did amazing', 'wonderful job' etc....and not a single person telling her to shut up with her perfect birth and that it's all down to luck

[Prettybaffled]

Peace and love back to you dm

Article sounded interesting but too exhausted/busy dealing with poorly dc to read it! I am sure it will be interesting when I finally get to it.

I think there are many potential mysogeny narratives around birth that I can think of. One is yours and another is banging on about the faultiness of the labouring woman's equipment and using a 'science' largely compiled my male obstetrics Drs to say that the female body can't do x or y eg 25% babies have to be induced to save them or they will die etc etc.

Very happily a signed up feminist but I think the equation is far from simple.

I entirely agree no one should be crowing about their superior birthing. We should all be supporting everyone's choice to do their own thing - twinkly lights in birthing pool for me and elective cs/epidural asap for others.

[FuckOffDailyMailQuitQuotingMN]

Daily mail, you are entitled to your point of view and I haven't read the article.
I don't understand your point - I should hope that we are all entitled to our own opinion. There is only one person here as far as I can tell who is telling women that their opinion is wrong and it sure as hell isn't me.

Fine you haven't read the article - your point is? Few people reads links on MN, it's kind of a joke to link to articles, especially long ones. I do know that.

I am not invested in any opinion here about birthing so I don't have any agenda one way or the other. What I will not do is sit by and listen to women (both here and in general) be blamed and judged (to no good end) and be "called out" by someone who has no good intent other than to proselytise their message to the disregard of other women, attack women as being derelict in their responsibility (without any wider social context which is both ignorant and dangerous) and then have the audacity to say they "just want to share positive stories" and "they are on your side". How disingenuous. No one here is denying that person their opinion yet they decry how "I do find it sad though that women are unable to share their positive experiences of childbirth" What insane fuckery is that?!

I won't let it go, I don't care if I have to keep repeating myself and look ridiculous. I don't care.

"We have people who will never know what it is like to live in our skin telling us just how much pain our nerves can stand, how much that skin can stretch, how much a woman should bear for the sake of the greater good. It is pure misogyny.

Peace and love indeed.

[Prettybaffled]

Daily mail, you are entitled to your point of view and I haven't read the article.

We spend a lot of time talking about physical processes and how we experience them - eating, sex and birth eg. We invest many of these with a worth and value far beyond the physical facts of the relevant event. Look at everything invested in how we do our hair which is just stuff hanging off our heads!

I don't view eating a lovely meal as akin to a trip to the ladies. Or birth!

For me, and I know this is not true for everyone birth was an amazing and powerful experience which took me to my emotional, physical and mental limits. Despite pphs and urgent medical treatment my births remain a very powerful and valuable memory. That was my own experience.

To get back to the op, thanks for asking this question op - very thought provoking.

[FuckOffDailyMailQuitQuotingMN]

I didn't realise suggesting that we have an element of control in our birthing was such a controversial idea.

It isn't a controversial idea. If you want to feel smug about pushing your babies out then great. It's about the same level of smugness you should feel at being great at emptying your bowels as far as I'm concerned. You know exactly what is "controversial" and that is telling other women that unless they do it your way they are doing it wrong. That is divisive and oppressive and ridiculous.

[FuckOffDailyMailQuitQuotingMN]

Of course you can't agree with or take anything away from the NewStatesman article, ispy because it totally annihilates your position as the birthing saviour of all of the so-called under-invested, in-prepared women who ended up having difficulties.

[holepunchkid]

It wasn't me who said it! I copied it from a previous poster and commented with lots of laughter! If you're going to be rude to me at least be accurate

oops
apologies

[ispymincepie]

PrettyBaffled I think you're the most sensible one here-well played. Am going to leave it here Good Luck OP.

[Prettybaffled]

I don't see any need to polarise here. As Olivia of mnhq would probably say - peace and love guys.

No one should judge others' experience and it's impossible to work out whether any one intervention was caused by being in hospital or what any mother did/didn't do.

As a hospital and homebirther I can say I know my pphs are not iatrogenic as I had one at home with no intervention whatsoever.

I still believe that generally the overall stats from the birthplace study show that birth outside a hospital clu for a low risk mother is safer. So I think that tends to show the cascade of intervention in action.

Stats show exercise and perineal massage, birth prep etc all five better likely outcomes. To go back to the op, a wonderful birthing environment can only help and I wouldn't be surprised if it was statistically significant over the longer term compared with a very stressful harshly lit building.

But it's all about choice. If people want to use the clu, have an epidural or an elective c section then of course they should have he right to do that.

And having had a rather medicalised end to both my births I would never judge anyone whose top priority is access to icu/theatre in case the worst happens.

[ispymincepie]

It may be that certain interventions are 'unnecessary' in that the baby would have been fine anyway but the trouble is the present state of technology and medical knowledge is such that we cannot say for certain which cases would end badly without intervention and which would be just fine. If there is a risk of death or brain damage or physical injury to my baby, I am very happy to have whatever interventions are recommended. The alternative is too awful for me.
It has already been established that for every baby saved by intervention, another baby will have been put at risk by unnecessary intervention. I have read several times on this thread people saying they wouldn't consider a MLU away from a Consultant/theatre/nicu because they 'couldn't take that risk'. My whole point that started this in the first place is that there are inherent risks purely by being in a hospital but nobody likes to acknowledge that apparently. So while Bluebird and others can claim nobody has attacked me personally, I have listened repeatedly to people insinuating I have taken unnecessary risks by choosing to birth in private.
To answer the OP, sterile clean consultant unit with a world class NICU on the same floor is my ideal. Dim lights etc is all nonsense in my view.
It's not nonsense, it helps create a calmer atmosphere which is conducive to the correct production of birthing hormones. Too much adrenaline for instance has the following affects (taken from childbirthconnection)-
Causing distress to the baby before birth.
Causing contractions to stop, slow or have an erratic pattern, and lengthening labor.
Creating a sense of panic and increasing pain in the mother.
Leading health care providers to respond to these problems with cesarean surgery and other interventions.
You might like to assume that low lighting, calming music, aromatherapy is all superficial nonsense but in reality it goes a very long way towards making birth a safer experience.

[PotteringAlong]

I'm afraid I am rather smug because I have had perfect births and while I accept a small element of that is luck, I genuinely believe it's mostly down to my approach.

Oh bless
How sweet and amazingly naive
You keep thinking that pottering, I'm sure it gives you comfort to know that every woman who had a bad birth experience was to blame for it.

It wasn't me who said it! I copied it from a previous poster and commented with lots of laughter! If you're going to be rude to me at least be accurate

[sycamore54321]

I am shocked by the 'perfect birth' posters on this thread and wish to lend my voice in support of FU and others talking sense. Birth is inherently dangerous for mothers and babies, and always has been up until the advent of modern obstetrics. It may be that certain interventions are 'unnecessary' in that the baby would have been fine anyway but the trouble is the present state of technology and medical knowledge is such that we cannot say for certain which cases would end badly without intervention and which would be just fine. If there is a risk of death or brain damage or physical injury to my baby, I am very happy to have whatever interventions are recommended. The alternative is too awful for me. Right now, the only way to know, for example, which breech babies didn't need a section would be to perform no sections and see which babies are dead or injured. This is not acceptable to me, and luckily not to the mainstream medical thinking either.


A couple of other points in case anyone is reading this and undecided. The cascade of interventions has never been proven - correlation may be there for some but not causation.

And as for bonding and hormones, I say horseshit. I love my babies because I am a sentient human being and have emotional intelligence and have cared for them with love. The same as my husband, the same as adoptive parents or step-parents do their family. I feel sorry for anyone who believes their love is so fragile that it depends on some hormones in a few hours and that they need to do some specific physical steps to achieve this. I believe love is way stronger than that. It does not depend on how I use my body in childbirth.

To answer the OP, sterile clean consultant unit with a world class NICU on the same floor is my ideal. Dim lights etc is all nonsense in my view.

[TheresABluebirdOnMyShoulder]

Man, I can't believe I got sucked back in. Hiding thread!

[randomsabreuse]

Next to CLU would be my main thing. I made the choice of the relatively dingy old MLU on the hospital campus over the newer on much closer to home. Got there in the morning - 2cm - bog off, came back 90 minutes later, waited 30 minutes for an exam - 7cm, meconium in waters, transfer up to CLU, 10cm at that point - then 2hrs plus of pushing before monitor started showing HR dips and we went with a ventouse - which was relatively easy. Had some stitches. Cord was wrapped around her foot.

This was at 38 +4 ish but I'm very short cycling and she was definitely "cooked".

No cascade of interventions there - I couldn't cope with an active labour - it hurt too much, possibly as a lot of the dilatation stage was in the car... never had long contractions either - probably hence the ventouse...

Birth part was great once in consultant led - ward was ok - major wish would be variable lighting and a source of savoury food other than crisps - could be paid for but needs to be close and convenient!

[TheresABluebirdOnMyShoulder]

You have zero empathy or compassion, which is why this conversation is going nowhere. You are also deliberately twisting my words which makes a meaningful discussion impossible. Nobody is upset to hear about a positive birth story, of course you can share a good story without causing offense. What you can't do is make assumptions and criticise somebody else's choices when they weren't quite so lucky and expect not to ruffle some feathers.

If you really can't understand why it would be damaging to somebody who has had a fairly traumatic experience and is therefore in a vulnerable place to hear somebody tell them that it's their fault that they didn't have a "perfect birth", I don't know what to say.

You had no need to defend yourself because nobody has criticised your choices. Obviously what you did worked for you. Unfortunately you are unable to extend that same courtesy to others.

[ispymincepie]

And what do you think we are? Imaginary pixies? You might not be speaking face to face, but the people who are reading your words are real and the potential damage you are doing is to their 'real lives'
I can't damage anybody's life by having a differing opinion to them. Again, if they are happy with their decisions then nothing I say will have them doubting themselves or thinking they did anything wrong. And I don't think I started this, I have only been defending myself in the same way I would if I was spoken to this way in real life. I didn't realise suggesting that we have an element of control in our birthing was such a controversial idea. I've repeatedly acknowledged there is some luck involved. I have had four dcs, healthy pregnancies, no losses, easy deliveries resulting in healthy children. I don't plan on having any more as I do worry my good luck may run out.
I do find it sad though that women are unable to share their positive experiences of childbirth, a monumentally empowering event for lots of us, for fear of offending others who haven't experienced it like that. It's no wonder that horror stories spread and fear is perpetuated.

[TheresABluebirdOnMyShoulder]

I'm going to bow out now because to be honest this is like banging my head against a brick wall. Clearly we have very different opinions and I think it's best left at that. I'm glad that anybody finding this thread at a vulnerable time (googling interventions etc.) will at least have a few sympathetic and sensitive opinions to read as well as the overly judgemental and critical ones for balance.

OP, I'm really sorry that we've completely derailed your thread. It's exceptionally bad form and I hope that you've got some useful information from other posters along the way. Best of luck with your project.

[TheresABluebirdOnMyShoulder]

I didn't call you sanctimonious for declining an epidural. Why are you making things up? I myself declined pain relief that crosses the blood-brain barrier HOWEVER I acknowledge that this was a personal decision and I was lucky that it was do-able for me at the time. It is not something that I feel the need to be congratulated for, nor do I feel superior to other mothers who made different choices, possibly under different circumstances.

I'm not a total bitch and have said I never call people on anything in real life
And what do you think we are? Imaginary pixies? You might not be speaking face to face, but the people who are reading your words are real and the potential damage you are doing is to their 'real lives'.

And no, I don't "silently judge people all the time". I doubt that many of us do. I'm too busy living my own life.

[holepunchkid]

I'm afraid I am rather smug because I have had perfect births and while I accept a small element of that is luck, I genuinely believe it's mostly down to my approach.

Oh bless
How sweet and amazingly naive
You keep thinking that pottering, I'm sure it gives you comfort to know that every woman who had a bad birth experience was to blame for it.