ooooh, it's handbags at dawn: Daisy Goodwin thinks we're vituperative...

[LupusinaLlamasuit]

here

Ri-i-i-i-ight. As evidence of our, ahem, 'mean girl' status.

So. Let's just get this straight. One week, she writes a column, roundly denounced as nonsense on here, spouting, no, vituperating on the "Breastfeeding Gestapo".

Coupla weeks later, we are the ones who are being vicious.

Please. Sort your own issues out love, rather than doing damage to other women struggling to breastfeed.

[BunnyLebowski]

Fair enough Aitch on reflection odious was too strong a word. I apologise if I offended anyone.

I did say that I acknowledge and accept that people make informed decisions and god for anyone who has been sexually abused as Tiktok says I can totally understand why it would be an issue.

I don't believe that all women across the board should be made to bf. It's just I find it hard to be supportive when I read of women who prioritise their lover over their baby etc (the breasts issue) etc.

Are cultural norms all-encompassing enough to stop us thinking for ourselves and questioning things? (not an accusation, genuinely pondering this?).

I have veered very far away from the accepted norm I was brought up in. As a teenager I read and read and read and began questioning everything around me from politics to religion to education to feminism. My decisions to have my baby at home, breastfeed her to 7 months and counting and to not haver her christened have elicited everything from raised eyebrows to outspoken condemnation amongst my family and friends back home in Ireland.

Just wondering am I unusual for this? Do most people just accept things as they are as limiting as this may be?

[AitchTwoOh]

well of COURSE you're unusual for doing this. as evidenced by the fact that everyone else in your circle wasn't doing it.

if someone says that their tits are for their man then there are other things going on, best gently prodded imo. but yy, good that you agree odious too strong. and agree hoochie that one should be able to prod without accusation of nazihood.

but say jordan, for example, she once said that her tits were for her man etc... it seems perfectly clear to me that her self image is hugely distorted (in fact her tits are for anyone with a couple of quid to spend on a soft porn calendar) and there's no point getting hugely up in arms about that. disappointing that a magazine prints it, though.

[CherryChoc]

Actually I've found MN the least judgy forum I've come across with regard to infant feeding, out of the ones which give good information. In fact before I came here I was of the same opinion as BunnyLebowski - but actually have changed my mind now and think the most important issue is bringing the information to women so that they can make the choice in an informed way. It's better someone mixed feeds and feels that they've made the right decision than stops bf because they felt that carrying on was too complicated or difficult.

And FWIW I think Tiktok is excellent in the way she comes across, she always says things like "If you choose to do this, then bear X in mind" rather than saying "It's a bad idea because it will make bf harder" without explaining it.

I think sometimes some other posters can come across as "attacking" when they come onto a thread asking for support and just ask loads of questions, I can see from the side of having bf knowledge and wanting to help that they need more info but I think it can make people feel a bit scared of giving the wrong answer, IYSWIM. So I think phrasing is important.

[tiktok]

Thing is, I don't think people should have to be unusual, or questioning, or unconventional, or brave, or willing to research and read, in order to breastfeed. It's a perfectly normal, physiological function, and when it is enabled (which is the role of the wider society, not just the individual woman), it will happen a lot more easily than it does at present. The people who have serious technical problems with it will get the right sort of help and intervention, and maybe donated milk.

It's like the circulation of the blood, or breathing, or growing hair (at least in the physical sense). When these things don't happen, or don't happen easily, something is done. No one judges the person whose body lets them down in these areas - they make sure they gets pills, or oxygen masks, or a wig.

[AitchTwoOh]

of course they shouldn't. have any bfing charites ever picked out the money involved, how much money the nhs might save if they spent the cash on support in the early days?

[dawntigga]

INMSHO you get fundies (fundementalists to whom rationality is a distant spot on the horizon behind them) in any sector of society. Don't get me started on the my God's better than your God brigade I've come across in Pagan circles! Some people like black and white but don't have the wherewithal in there souls to understand that other peoples mileage can vary and bang on and on about it with no tact whatsover.

I'm not precious about BF never will be. I think like many other things it's the womans right to choose after being presented with as much information as possible to make that choice informed. I think the majority of people in here would probably agree.

Smooches Dawnxx

[tiktok]

Dawn, I couldn't disagree more! Natch I think mothers should have as much info as they want, but it really does not stop there....that's only the beginning.

Breastfeeding needs to be enabled. The reason women don't do it, or don't do it for long, is hardly ever because they were not given enough information about its 'benefits'.

The majority - 9 out of 10 - of women who stop bf in the early weeks wanted to continue if they could have done so without discomfort, embarrassment, lack of confidence. Out of the women who stop in the first week, guess how many stopped because they had breastfed as long as they had planned to? One per cent. That's 99 out of 100 women who stop in the first week who wanted to breastfeed and didn't.

No amount of presenting women with enough information to make an informed choice will affect that.

[StealthPolarBear]

is no-one else slightly scared bu=y tiktok's
"hatchet jobs, when deserved, can still be administered calmly"


Bunny I agree. My own opinion is that support is essential and part of that support is making sure people have all the facts and are making an informed decision. If someone says they want to ff, then I don't think there's anything wrong with asking why. If they answer (or say they don't want to) then fine. If they might have been given the wrong information ("I don't have enough milk"..."can't bf because I'm on ADs") then ensuring they get that checked out is not attacking that poster, although it's often taken that way. I'm not sure why. Obviously there are people who say they're selfish for making the decision they've made but they usually quite rightly get corrected. In an ideal world every mother, bf or not, would be fully supported by HCPs who are up to date on current bf research and able to ensure that women have all the facts, in reality that's not always the case

[CherryChoc]

Yes - sorry, I didn't mean about whether to breastfeed or not in the first place, as much as information on how to do it, what to do in X situation, what their options are from there etc.

[CherryChoc]

I think, SPB - because if someone says they want to FF, and you ask why, it indicates that you find it surprising/odd that they would choose that, which makes people feel that you are judging them for it.

Also the examples you cited aren't usually reasons women choose not to bf, but reasons why they might believe they can't (even if they wanted to). So for that reason I wouldn't ask someone why if they said they wanted to FF, but if someone makes a post saying they intend to FF and they seemed to be less than confident/happy about their decision there is nothing wrong with offering information, as long as it's presented in such a way as it doesn't come across as "I think you should do this" or even "this would be the best thing to do".

(Sorry my post will probably be overtaken, am typing v. slowly today)

[tiktok]

I meant no need to lose one's temper, normally!

The drugs thing often surfaces here on mumsnet. In my NCT life, I have just heard from a mother who was prescribed something innocuous to breastfeeding - won't say what it is, for confidentiality, but it was something that has been known for decades not to get into the milk in any discernible quantity. The info about its safety is widely available. But this mother had been told to stop bf, and she not unnaturally assumed this was unavoidable. She duly expressed for weeks and weeks to maintain a supply and contacted NCT for support on how to get her by-now-longtime-fully-ff baby back to the breast.

Now, her doctor and health visitor, both of whom had told her 'no breastfeeding' need a calm hatchet-job, I think. Would this, I wonder, be vituperative?

[aurorec]

You know what? I don't believe in female solidarity.
We're not a weak pathetic little minority that need to agree on everything. I'm a person and I agree/disagree with other people not because of their gender but because of their ideas/opinions.

I think the concept of 'female solidariry' is increasingly used as a way of shutting down important debates and effectively shutting women up. We don't hear much about male solidariry do we?

[aurorec]

male solidarity I meant....

[tiktok]

Cherrychoc, I know what you mean.

We should tread carefully and politely (and this is almost always done), explaining why the question is being asked, and acknwledging that it seems intrusive.

But given the amount of mis-info around it is perfectly reasonable to ask someone, unless as you say, they seem confident and happy about their intention.

[tiktok]

Female solidarity, to me, when it comes to infant feeding, means understanding and to a certain extent experiencing the same social factors that impact on the decision to breastfeed or formula feed.

I agree, aurorec, it doesn't mean agreeing with everything someone says, just because she's a woman!

[aurorec]

Tiktok I'm glad you see my point. I think that's what we're expected to do though...

[StealthPolarBear]

CherryChoc, iswym, but sometimes they are cited as reasons why bf didn't work out the first time, so a woman plans not to try again with her second. Or in my case my mum "didn't have enough milk" and so I expected to have the same.
I agree, if a woman starts a thread saying "I plan to ff and which milk should I use" it sounds as though her mind is made up. Even then though (and especially when it just comes out as part of another post) it's worth asking in case her reasons for being so certain are down to something that can be easily fixed.
I don't judge people for choosing to ff but formula is an intervention, many many women want to bf but believe they can't for a number of reasons, so asking why might just change their plans and make them happier!

[StealthPolarBear]

she sticks to her hatchets i think!

[ThingOne]

Back to the OP and the article. I wonder if, for example, Daisy Goodwin is a twat?

[LupusinaLlamasuit]

ThingOne

You, um, vituperative meangirl, you.

[fledtoscotland]

i must read a different MN from other people as i've had nothing but support with regards to breastfeeding from this site. As a mum who FF DS1 and BF DS2, i have never received any negative comments about the way my boys have been fed.

can someone enlighten me?

[Stinkermink]

Referring to the article and the OP, I have just had an enlightening conversation with my mother, where she just told me that her own sister had made mistakes in her life and continued to reap what she'd sown because she put her children first in her life before her husband. Mum just said "my Dsis criticized me for putting my husband before my children, but you know what as much as I love you both (me and my Dsis) your father always came/comes first and that's the way it should be." It's not really a surprise to me, but I was a little to be honest because that's not how I view my own DH and DC at all!! Explains a lot though!