Should I just give up bfing?

[Cupcakemummy85]

My dd2 is 4 weeks old now and we've had all sorts of problems with bfing. From extremley windy to being sick a lot to feeding for 7 hours straight. Dd1 is 20 months and I'm exhausted. Dd2 is doing so well, gaining lots of weight but she is never really settled and constantly needs to go on the breast. A few days ago I ended up feeding her for 7 hours which nearly killed me and mentally broke me. Her latch has been checked, I've spoken to bf counsellors, we r seeing doc and tongue tie clinic again next week to check it hasn't grown back.
Yesterday I gave her my milk in bottles and she seemed so much better. She also had formula and everyone said I should just go straight to formula. It makes me really sad as I fed dd1 for 8 months and I'm frustrated because its not working this time. I keep telling dh that even after formula she still needs the breast for comfort. He keeps saying she's too sick on my milk and it's causing her pain so why would I want to cause her pain. It's making me very upset. I have no support to carry on bfing. Dh thinks the stress of bfing will bring on PND again but not will probably bring it on again too as the guilt will just overwhelm me.

Aww thank you a hug is very much needed and appreciated :)

I'm surprised I haven't had a bottle alon with my glass of wine, I have had a whole entire day of crying. This evening has been non stop. Had to go to the doctor for her and he has given us colief, has done nothing. She has cried and cried. I'm at the end of my tether! I want to bang my head against a wall, it would give me relief from the crying. She feeds she cries, she does anything, she cries. The doc said there's no point giving up dairy but I have to try something. I can't carry on like this anymore this is horrible!! My poor dd1 is not getting any attention from me and dd2 is in such a state. What do I do. I've got all the help I can possibly get from every breastfeeding expert.

Cupcake, what a difficult, distressing time for you all :(

How about a different tack?

I haven't seen anything in your posts to make me think this is a physical problem (eg CMPI, reflux, or similar), though that's not to say these are ruled out....just to say I don't see any evidence of them in your descriptions.

A psychotherapist or mother-infant mental health specialist might explore the notion that your baby is articulating and reflecting emotional distress and you and your baby are in a communicative, linking 'loop' where each of you compounds each other's sadness and confusion. Of course the baby is not distressed on a cognitive level - these responses are not borne of understanding or anything approaching that. But the feelings are real, nonetheless, just as real as yours.

If you have a HV who is open to different ideas, or if you felt your GP was, or if you have an infant mental health service in your area (some places have them) or specialists working in your local CAMHS (Children and Adolescents mental health services), perhaps you can explore this with them?

Oh, Tiktok, I know you are the Mumsnet guru of all things breastfeeding, and so I say this with trepidation, but I think you are wrong!

My son had cmpi and was identical, exactly the same as the OP describes her daughter. Nobody believed me, either, for 5 long and hellish months. I really think trying to find some kind of mental health "cause" for this problem is not helpful. It would've pushed me over the edge, that's for certain.

Signs and symptoms of my son's cmpi:
Colicky symptoms 24 hrs a day with no daily pattern (ie definitely not 5 o'clock colic)
Gallons of sick (way more than normal posseting)
Lots of painful wind, painful enough to wake baby from a deep sleep with cries of pain
Inconsolable crying virtually all the time, even when coming up for air during feeds
Very frequent feeding - 1.5- 2 hourly
Always reluctant to stop feeding
Poo virtually liquid

All the above are classic signs of a dietary intolerance. It was very, very hard to cope with, but had nothing to do with anyone's mental health!

I am not sure why you say that there is nothing in the OP's posts that indicate a dietary intolerance? As far as I can tell she is experiencing pretty much exactly what I did

I feel so terrible disagreeing with Tiktok......

Hi Cupcake - chiming in a bit late, but just wanted to add that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. If you're in two minds still, you could give a small bottle of formula in the evening when your DH is around to pitch in (and you and your DD are both probably at your most stressed/tired). I added a top up at bedtime from 6 weeks (on advice) and expressed at some point in the evening, so I always had a supply of EBM in the fridge/freezer and kept my supply up (if I wanted to drop the bottle). Best of both worlds! x

Oh, and he. never. slept. That was the 2nd worst part (inconsolable crying being the worst). There was no respite.

Cupcake, what we did to survive was every day my DP took DS out of the house for a least an hour, usually in the sling for a walk. He would scream non stop for DP, but since he screamed virtually non stop with me we figured it didn't make much difference. He was still with a parent. That hour a day gave me a breathing space.

Also, he was happy in the bath! He didn't scream in the bath. So we gave him long baths every day

Are you able to give Dd2 to your DH at least twice a day and get out of earshot of the screaming? Without that, I would have been suicidal.

I have no idea if its CMPI, could be... anyway, my ds had this and I tried to cut out ALL dairy from my diet - reading packets etc... I lasted a whole 7 hours . Anyway, I decided to just cut out pure milk, cream, obvious sources of dairy, and see what happened. There was a huge improvement in my ds - he stopped screaming but still chucked up buckets of milk BUT as his weight gain was good and he was happy, this was enough for us.

Hi Op, it sounds to me like it could be silent reflux. Have you done any research on it to see if your baby's symptoms match? My dd has this and the first 3 months were awful, I knew it was reflux pretty early on having suffered with bad acid reflux myself. She would scream and scream in pain, over feed making it worse . If you think it could be this it would be worth going back to your gp and getting something other than gaviscon, it did not work for us at all and so we got ranitidine which has turned things around. Prior to this I was considering swapping to formula as I thought it was my milk until I researched that ff could make it worse in that this is harder to digest, therefore more tummy acid etc. the thought of it getting worse persuaded me to stick at it.

Be cautious about trying too many things at once. If you think she has silent reflux and what you have been given by doc isn't working go back.

HTH

kernow - you are being far more dogmatic than I am!

I am not diagnosing anything or ruling anything in or out - just suggesting another avenue for the OP to explore, given that the medical investigations have not revealed anything physical, and the OP's baby's symptoms vary a lot in intensity.

Sorry, I don't mean to be dogmatic! And I really don't want to pick a fight with Tiktok.

I only posted what I did because when I was in a similar situation to the OP, I would have gone out and thrown myself under a bus if someone had suggested to me it was a psychological / mental health issue - ie that i was causing it. And I worry that the OP might blame herself for what is going on. Particularly since the extended family seem to be doing quite a bit of that already

Not fighting with you, kernow :)

It's a poor show if we can't mention mental health issues and, crucially, the help available for them to someone who has already been down other paths and is still nowhere near resolution and who is despairing of things getting better.

I know it's a sensitive area - but it's worthwhile bringing up especially as the OP has had PND in the past, and is worried about guilt overwhelming her :(

OP if you're anywhere near oxford i'd highly recommend the JR hospital feeding clinic. Sally inch and chloe (retired midwife) are lovely and brilliant. Sally saw me about persistent thrush (still got but long story!) and made me feel much better.
I know you've seen several groups but i found this one much more helpful. They have a drop-in session mon and thurs

I'm sorry tiktok I'm not quite sure what you meant. The doctor has diagnosed reflux and I can assure u she is in pain. I'm pretty sure it's a mixture if reflux colic and I'm cutting out dairy to see if that helps.
I don't really think my mental health has anything to do with her crying tbh.
I gave her bottles of ebm yesterday and she seemed ok an was feeding at regular times so perhaps that might have to b something I have to do for a while until the colic has gone. Combination feeding is the way forward for us, for now.
One day at a time I think it will have to b.

I wish I was near Oxford jims. If I was I would go :( but I can't see what more can b done. I've gone to every breastfeeding expert I can find and all their suggestions and help have been great but not for us. Eg block feeding didnt work because dd is so hungry she needs a second breast lol

cupcake, I hope things go well for you.

To explain: where there is doubt about a physical diagnosis (and your doc is not sure) it is always worth considering that the stress of a baby who is continually upset and unsettled over weeks yet is in good health and thriving may be ramping up the general stress and making it more difficult to calm and soothe...and that can sometimes be helped with therapy/counselling/emotional and psychological support. It is a suggestion to explore, not a 'diagnosis' - who can tell on a talkboard what's really up? :)

Hope you have a good weekend and your dd gets better.

cupcake I'm so sorry to hear you are having such a difficult time. What you have described sounds very much like my experience with ds2 who had silent reflux. It was truly truly awful.

Infant Gaviscon was a bit of a faff until we got in the swing of it but it helped massively - just wanted to add that it took a good week to 10 days before his poor little throat recovered properly and we saw the full effects.

I used to keep him upright as much as possible and another tip is that a dummy can help as part of the reason they want to suck a lot is that it helps keep the stomach contents down (you can't throw up and suck simultaneously)

Hope things start to improve for you both soon.

Pettyprudence- I was wondering if u could tell me exactly what dairy things you cut from your diet because I'm really struggling, I'm missing cheese and chocolate, things I don't have a lot of but I notice they r gone now. I've successfully cut milk out and I don't have cream really (perhaps a little ice cream ;) ). I'd really like to to try and see if it makes a difference. Anything is worth a try. I just feel like she is so windy and seems to be in pain whilst feeding, perhaps I can make it beter by cutting dairy. It's worth a try.
Dewdrop- I am persevering with the dummy. She takes it when we r out but when we r in the house it's like she knows I'm able to give her the boob and starts gagging on it. I've tried every dummy I can. Dh is shocked at how many we have lol. How many gaviscon did u give ur dc? Dd is on 1 but we thought about giving her 2 sachets.
She just seems unsettled and wants to feed, ALL DAY!!!! One of my nipples is purple she's fed so much this morning lol

Cupcake my baby had reflux and used to suck on me for hours. And throw up my milk a lot. I found formula and a dummy (recommended by GP) helped a lot. You have to do what's right for you.

Sorry just seen your post above about dummies. I also found hours out in the pram calmed daughter. I literally took her out everywhere. But not sure how easy that is if you have two.

Cupcake, I know you have said you have had the latch checked, but if your daughter seems better, even when she has had your breastmilk in a bottle, then perhaps it is worth getting it checked again. I was repeatedly told when my DD was born (she showed similar symptoms although not really very sicky) that the latch was perfect, but it clearly wasn't as once I altered it, things were much, much better. You may know this anyway, but someone needs to watch a full feed to assess the latch.

Have you seen the tongue tie clinic again yet?

The bottle success makes me wonder about tt but tbh my two have cmpi (dd has tt and lip tie too) and I could have written your post. Ds was never treated and his first 16 months were so hard. I'm not sure my mental health or marriage hace ever fully recovered. Because dd was 3 months prem she has many medical contacts and her cmpi silent reflux has been addressed. Gaviscon didnt help but an antacid (omeprazole) and me eliminating dairy and soya have given all of us our lives back. The diet sounds much harder than it actually is the baby weight has melted away and with planning and label checking you can still have cakes biccies and chocolate. Cant recommend it enough. Pm and i'd be happy to help. I applaud tiktok for voicing other ideas but from my experience i found i cultivated far far greater resources for calming and soothing ds than dd... I had no other option.

Sorry cupcake, only just noticed your message. I just cut out milk, cream, custard, ice cream and yogurt. I still ate cheese and butter because the CMP levels in those are VERY low (as is homemade yogurt but shop bought they seem to chuck in some extra milk powder at the end of the process). So i had to drink black tea and stop having cereal for breakfast, but I would still have a cheese sandwich at lunch. I still ate chocolate because its an intolerance not allergy and tbh if chocolate had caused a reaction in ds I'm not sure what we would have done.....

I cut out what I could tolerate cutting out (sanity wise). I don't know what we would have done if it hadn't worked though.

It can take about 2 weeks to notice a difference but I found and improvement in ds by day 3. I accidentally ate ice cream one evening and ds spent the next 24 hours screaming after feeds so I knew that cutting it out was definitely making a difference.

As I said before, he didn't stop chucking up gallons of milk but he did stop screaming and comfort sucking and as his weight gain was very good I decided that we had reached a happy compromise (ish - the laundry was a nightmare!)

I eventually used oatley milk for cereal and cooking. Once ds got to about 1 I tried him with soya products and he has been fine with these. DS is also fine with (most) cheeses and butter (he is 2 now) and chocolate

Wow I'm glad you've had such a response to this. I had problems with my first baby Breastfeeding. He seemed to drink loads then burp and throw up literally the whole feed! I felt awful! I lived in the middle of nowhere and never got to see the doctor about it but fortunately after a while it started to improve. The older he got the better he handled feeding. He was also very windy. Looking back he probably had a reflux problem because he did occasionally throw up still after we stopped Breastfeeding at 7-8months. But with every passing month from around 2 months he improved a little on the breast and threw up less. I am currently bfing my daughter (9months) she hasn't appeared to have this problem however I did notice that the day after I drank a lot of milk she was sick and windy and grumpy. I tested the theory again and she again was upset after I drank lots of milk. So didn't seem to have a problem with me having yogurts or cheese just drinking actual milk so I try not to have too much. As for the lack of support you've been receiving in your family, its horrible! My family were very supportive to me, my mother struggled to bf me her first and gave up but she did it with both my younger brothers and was very supportive to me. You need someone like that. My husbands family were horrid! They acted like I was selfish for Breastfeeding and constantly said things like "well that's what happens when you decide to breastfeed" it was so frustrating. Hopefully between the doctors advice and time things will begin to improve for you. But whether or not you breastfeed is not causing your child pain and not likely to make a huge difference to the reflux problem. You have to just be honest with yourself and do what is best for you and your baby not anyone else. Everyone else should be supporting your decisions. Baby's often get constipation, for a few days this isn't really a problem but beyond that then speak to your doctor for advice.