Blog-prompt: Extended breastfeeding bad for dads?

[KateMumsnet]

Hello 

In case you hadn't seen it, we thought we'd draw your attention to this provocative piece in the New York Times, in which James Braly argues that attachment parenting - specifically extended breastfeeding - might be beneficial for children and mothers, but is Not A Good Thing for fathers. 

In the process he makes some interesting assumptions about men and women, with which Amanda Marcotte takes issue in Slate.  On this side of the pond, Jill Filipovic argues that, despite Braly's questionable attitude to women, there is an important discussion to be had about how to nurture the sexual side of a parental relationship.

What do you think of the New York Times piece - interesting, outrageous, irrelevant or misogynist? If it piques your interest enough to blog over the weekend, do let us know on the thread - we're keen to feature your posts.

Do also let us know here what you think of blog-prompts more generally, and any suggestions for future themes or topics - serious or silly!

Thanks

KateMumsnet

[KristinaM]

I find this idea very interesting, that breasts can only have one function ie sexaul, while other parts of the body can have dual uses. I have never heard of a woman (or a gay man) say that they have gone right off sex now they have discovered that their partner pees with his penis and also has sex with it.

Is it an issues for women too ie do lesbians go off sex when their partners are bf? Or is it unique to some men in western cultures?

Why is the vulva still sexual when urine and menstrual blood come out of it but breasts are not sexual when milk comes out of them?

[NoComet]

KirstinaM

I didn't say there was anything wrong or exhibitionist about BFing public. I happily fed DD2 until she was 18 months old in public.

What I said is DD2 herself is not an exhibitionist, she instinctively knows and cares what people think.

I never told her not to ask to be fed in public as a toddler, she just didn't. I guess she just never saw other children her age feeding so why would she.

I feel very strongly about extended BF, in retrospect I wish I'd feed her openly as an older child, but I think she would have hated it.

At the time I went with the flow because she needed a lot of space to feed as she grew taller and home was easier.

[Kveta]

horrible article.

my DH did say the other day 'I know I'm last in the pecking order when it comes to your boobs' and did a comedy sadface (I had a baby and toddler on either side, both latched on, at the time) - had to point out that if anything, I am last in the pecking order, as they seem to be a food source for 2 children and a fun toy for one husband.

however, it didn't stop me from getting pg with DC2 whilst still bfing 2yo DC1. so clearly some grown up men can see past the bfing and take their turn.

(I haven't fed 2.9yo DS in public since he was about 18 months either, and am not keen to, not sure why 18 months was our 'cut off' point for al fresco feeding, but it seems quite a common one)

[Beckamaw]

What bollocks, spouted from a man whose only problem is his own hang ups!
I am BF and with a man whose ex wife did not BF. He found it odd initially but has never questioned my choice.
We have an amazing sex life. Nothing has changed, other than my wearing a bra during sex to prevent squirting him!

[mumblecrumble]

Agree so heartely with KristinaM. We have always had body parts that are multifunctional and I just don;t get how people are hung up over it.

He sounds like a twit - glad I;m not having his kids.

My DH would not have dared said or even thought of it. I am not a woman with fun breasts on the front!!!

[DuelingFanjo]

sounds to me like he's saying his wife breastfeeding makes him feel sick and puts him off sex with her enough that he could have an affair. Right. What a twat.

[NoComet]

I say for DD2 and me 18 months was the cut off for feeding in public mainly because she wanted to lie out straight and needed lots of room.

On a sofa or in bed fine, on some Costa coffee bench seats ok, but in most places it became rather difficult. Sitting DH next to me and using both laps worked, but DD1 wasn't mad on having both parents tied up.

Also as she matured she lost her baby stubby nose. She had to position her own head to feed and breath. She was very good at this, but often she decided to arrange my T shirt round my ears and stick her bum out knocking coffee cups flying and sending modesty out the window.

She also did one full day a week at nursery from 20 months and happily fed only am and pm.

[NoComet]

As for the article, any excuse for an affair will do.

[mothergoutte]

In my view it's definitely more a question of communication between partners than the so called 'issue' of extended breastfeeding.

Feeding and sleeping arrangements are just part of many choices we have to make about how we parent our children. And if one parent thinks that the other parent made an unilateral choice and is unhappy about that choice, surely it should be discussed between them.

And yes having children changes a relationship, whether you're breastfeeding or not. Our new identities of Mother and Father might have to make some compromise with our identities of woman and man, but again it comes to choices and communication.

Personnally I think that motherhood gives a woman a mature feminity extremely attractive. You can't have the full hips and generous breasts and resent the reason they are this way.

Braly's 'article' sounds very much like something made to provoke, touching on a trending subject, to be talked of and make his newspaper sell more copies, and unfortunately it works !

[juneau]

I can't imagine why anyone would WANT to BF a 5-year-old (and I'm a committed EBFer), but this guy sounds like a petulant toddler who should be discussing his concerns with his wife. Having said that, if my DH wasn't supportive (as this man clearly isn't), I would take that into consideration when deciding to do extended BFing. After all, the parents' relationship is key to the success of the family as a whole and many studies have shown that kids do best when they have parents who love one another and stay together.

[KristinaM]

Juneau-I've never bf a 5 yo but I assume that no one starts bf one. They start with a new born baby, then a toddler and they go on feeding them. And neither mum nor nursling see any reason to stop. I wouldn't think they wake up and suddenly go " oh I would like to bf a 5yo".

It's a bit like having sex with a 50yo. If you had asked me when I was 20 I would have told you how gross it was, how could anyone fancy a man as old as 50!!! with wrinkles and grey hair t( some growing in his ears) and a paunch!!! But now dh is 50 I've changed my mind

[azazello]

If it bothers him so much he could perhaps try helping both his son and his wife to feed less. I'm still bf my nearly 3yo DS who shows absolutely no inclination to cut down in feeding. If DH started winging about how often DS was feeding without for example distracting him, playing with him, cuddling in the night etc and expected me to deal with it without feeding, I would be extremely pissed off.

[NoComet]

KristinaM
That's exactly what happens, DD1 was never exclusively BF and never after 5 months.

I was delighted when the second time I tried to BF DD2 she just latched on and knew exactly what to do.

Never in a million years did I guess she would never to choose to give up.

As she grew up, how often, where and when she BF just grew up with her. Any date I'd chosen to say no would have been totally artificial.

Feeding was special to her, nice for me, didn't bother DH and didn't bother DD1. (she tended to feed before DD1 got up and after she was in bed either asleep or being read to by DH).

[ATOmum]

Don't know if any of you read the comments underneath the original article, but according to them the couple are getting divorced, which, if true, makes this man not only a complete tool but a particularly viscious one taking a swipe at his wife in public, while all of them have clearly got enough difficulties to deal with as it is.

[hellymelly]

I've just fed a five year old, and I agree with the above comments. She's only ever been one day older to me, and she is the one who doesn't want to stop, I would have quite happily stopped bf ages ago, I am old and knackered anough as it is. I hate the "weird" comments as they are directed at a small child who is doing what to her is a completely natural thing. Anyway it is five minutes when she wakes up and about ten before sleep, hardly a huge chunk out of my day, or hers, but emotionally it still matters to her.

[NoComet]

I was very lucky only my family and two friends knew DD2 still BF.

DSIS made the odd, if people at home knew they'd think it weird. ie. I think your a bit mad comments. But I am her mad eccentric big sister so that's normal. My parents are not ones to give advice unless asked.

DHs parents are no longer alive and DSIL lives too far away to see often and BF her own DD until toddlerhood at least.

As for the friend they too BF their DC for several years and had older DCs who wanted a turn when their younger siblings were eating

As I've said it was DD2 herself who choose to keep quiet.
Like my DSIS she is the conventional one.

[Trickle]

I felt it was a bit blah - I have needs that must be met regardless of others feelings (I am a selfish twat and this has nothing to do with my genitals or parental status) till

given the choice, I knew I?d do what they were doing. Before they came along, I did

about seeing his wifes breasts through his son's eyes - what he looked for motherly love and comfort through suckling from his lactating wife???? Issues much!

[EdgarAllenPimms]

i think my DH would be happy for me to BF forever

looks down at 34Gs<

they will go back to under 34C when we stop...

[NoComet]

I guess being a relatively small breast biologist, I've never had any problem with the idea that my breasts evolved to feed babies and became seen by males as attractive for that reason.

Maybe if I was a big bobbed beauty who had mens eye on my chest at all times I'd feel differently, but I'm not.

DH used my breasts for his and my pleasure and DD2 for hers, no problem after the initial cracked nipples had healed.

Even my boobs seemed to understand their duel role releasing milk for DD and never doing so for DH (who hates milk)

[MoreBeta]

Well hats off to James Braly for daring to talk about EBF from a man's point of view and daring to talk about it in anything other than glowing terms. That said, I think the blog post was a massive missed opportunity and I didnt agree with the substance of his views or the way he expressed them.

I agree with what the Guardian artilce said: " it would have been nice to see a decent take on the impact that attachment parenting can have on a marriage".

That was the blog post I was expecting to read.

My own DW found BF to be something she didnt really enjoy with either DS1 or DS2. She stuck with it for as long as she could but frankly was glad to give up and I was happy to share formula feeding. There is something very special about feeding a baby - although perhaps less so at 3 am and halucinating with exhaustion.

We have 4 sets of friends that have done EBF with their children and frankly I dont agree with it. They a;ll stayed married so I dont think it hurt their marriages as far as I can tell but what I do think is that in all cases the children are all extremely badly behaved because the mother never says no to her children and the father has no say at all.

I think children who EBF actually begin to use it as a way of dominating their parents' time. Children can be extremely selfish and if a child can always demand EBF to the age of 5 means that child learns that te eparent never has personal space that is theirs. The child also learns it can use EBF as a way of getting attention and drawing the mother's attention away from the father. That may well affect a marriage. Parents need some time to themselves - and children need to learn that.

Do some women use EBF as an excuse to push the father away? Perhaps some do. I have no personal observation of that.

Is BF generally disgusting and does it make me want to vomit? No never felt that way. Its just a baby eating.

Does EBF affect children's behaviour? Yes and badly in my limited experience.

[Trickle]

morebeta I think you may be mixing up EBF and parenting in general tbh, it never worked that way in my house, ok we stopped when I was 3 not 5 but my mum is the queen of 'no I'm busy, later'. It's a shame as I do know a parent who both EBF and parents in the same style as your friend, so any mention of me possibly EBF is met with horror by most people we mutually know. It's nothing like either the family I was in or the families I grew up around, the majority of us became very independant children and adults very aware of boundries and with respect for others.
I've seen plenty of parents use sweets in a similar way - but that doesn't tend to get mixed up with the parenting style as much as breast feeding does.

[NoComet]

I can only speak from personal experience and of the four people I know who feed DCs to 3 and beyond I know only one child who was a bit spoilt and liable to get their own way. Their mother isn't the most confident of people and they had serve eczema.
The other two are far too practical and have far too busier lives with work and other DCs to stand much nonsense.

Me, I shout, I dole out the odd slap, I send painful children to their rooms, all in all I'm the least patient person on the planet. My own parents were reasonably strict and I despair of what many DC get away with.
Neither of my DDs get into any kind of trouble at school DD1 (14) is the nicest teen your ever likely to meet.
My eternally BFing DD2 gets truly embarrassing school reports, she is an utter angel. Much less so at home

BF or not BF has nothing to do with it, both know that reasonable behaviour and valuing your education are just what's expected. Both are genetically bright and DD2 has inherited DHs respectful to outside authority gene. (If there is such a thing!). Certainly neither of them has my rebellious streak

[DuelingFanjo]

I do think it's odd that people can be anti other people EBF. Fine if you don't want to do it but it's weird to moan on about other people who do.Isn't life too short?

Also I think most EBF aren't in a situation where they allow their children to dictate when they are fed - they do eat other food too you know, and they can be distracted or refused when it's not convenient.

[KristinaM]

LOL at more beta. Isn't it amazing that the human race has continued so long, with all these millions of breast fed children around the world , all behaving so badly