Concerns over 4 year old

[vanessaw200]

I've a 4 year old girl. Her sleep has always been bad since birth, and we've seen all the so called experts . They told me that when she started school it may improve. It has to a degree and is an improvement compared to a couple of years ago. But the school are aware of her sleep problems and the subsequent behaviour.

This week, the sleep has been atrocious and she's been getting less than 10 hours a night despite the fact we been out most days to try and wear her out to get her to sleep longer. The lack of sleep means that she is even more hyper than normal and her behaviour has been worse as well. She is so tired but will not sleep longer than 10 hours.

What can I do ??????

When sleep isn't a problem, she is always on the go. This means constantly running, leaping,jumping, gigging around even in front of the telly. She never sits still even when she does sit down and is always fidgeting. When she wants to sit on your lap, she justs launches herself at you and then fidgets constantly and then proceeds to climb all over you. Constantly talks even if you tell her to be quiet, she still carries on. Can be quite clumsy but that's more if she's tired.

Would you be concerned, should I be concerned, What can I do ???

Or am I just a Crap Mother !!!

Cos I'm finding it all very frustrating to deal with and I wish knew what to do ??? I know a lot of 4 year olds and whilst some of them are lively they're not like my daughter.

Thanks

[vanessaw200]

Seeker - We aim for 10 hours as we know that she will be calmer though still hyper but a bit calmer and easier to deal with. If it's less than 10 ie 9 or less then we know it could be a bad day.

DaftApeth - still not sure about it being sensory seeking but do take yoyr point. If you hug her tight she moans that she's being squished. She tends to throw the duvet off.

I got called into a meeting at the school yesterday in regard to her concentration and fidgeting and they're referring her to the School Nurse to which I hope to be there at the meeting

[tryingtoleave]

Ok - if you ever decide to go for it, just google failsafe diet or RPAH (Royal Prince Alfred Hospital) Elimination diet. It's quite well known here in Australia - not some kind of loony fringe thing. Best of luck anyway - I know what it's like to have a child who is always on the go.

I must say, shockers, I kind of miss the juice since it's been banned from the house. Oh wel...

[DaftApeth]

I would agree with those who have suggested sensory integration difficulty or sensory seeking behaviour could be the issue here. Hyperactivity, unable to concentrate, constipation (funnily enough) and toe walking (I know that was another poster who mentioned this) are all symptoms of this.

Obviously, 4yrs is very young but most children her age would be at least starting to be able to sit still for a short time - particularly at school/nursery when everyone else is sitting.

The fact that holding something at story time helps also suggests a sensory issue, imho. You could try giving her a stress ball at home to fiddle with whilst she watches tv and see if this helps her to sit still for longer.

Does she respond to being hugged firmly i.e. does this help to calm her? Does she like tight clothing or wrapping herself up in her duvet, for examlpe? All these would give her body lots of sensory feedback and help to calm if she is a sensory seeker.

An Occupational Therapy assessment may help if it is a sensory issue. You would probably have to do this through your GP. Perhaps the school nurse could advise you when you meet her.

If you google 'sensory processing disorder' and 'sensory seekers', you will find more information on this - most of it is american though.

I hope you get some ideas and strategies to help your dd.

[seeker]

How much sleep do you think she ought to have? 10 hours seems fine to me!

[shockers]

Actually tryingtoleave that makes sense. When we give drinks at home it's either water or fruit juice that's watered down a lot. These ready made up drinks are terribly strong... I personally find them sickly.

[vanessaw200]

tryingtoleave - Thanks for this.

I think at the moment, I'll wait.

I got called into the school today for a meeting and the teacher wants to refer my daughter to the school nurse because of her concentration and fidgeting. So I think I'll see what comes of that and take it forward after that.

[tryingtoleave]

It's probably not the sugar (sugar does not cause hyperactivity) but the concentrated fruit in ribena that is the problem (the salicylates). I know it probably sounds crazy but it there is a lot of research that backs this up. And I'm not sure if mrs preg meant this but naturally coloured food can be problematic in this way. Tomatoes, and especially tomato paste, are very high in natural chemicals. Ds has a problem with some red food. Strawberries and pumpkin make him scream and watermelon has a diuretic effect on him.

[neenienana]

Hi Vanesssa,
I have been despairing over my ds's boundless energy, selective hearing, constant running, jumping, shooting, fighting etc etc. Coupled with frequent bursts of anger, frustration, oversensitivity and need to control situations, including when his playmates are allowed to go home! He has recently started reception and is very happy there. I got really worried today cos he was so angry with me that he tried to shhut the door on me and was very physical. I feel a bit better now after reading all the different messages and overall have come to the conclusion that our kid's are fine. Maybe we should get them together and power the planet with their collective energy!

[vanessaw200]

Shockers - oh right, hadn't given a thought to the cartons, luckily she don't get them very often. My husband isn't keen on getting a trampoline as we've got a small garden and we had a new lawn laid last year and it will kill the grass.

WowOoo - the trouble is that I wouldn't get her to sit still in the first place let alone do meditation or yoga. She don't do quiet time, can never get to shut up let alone have quiet time..

Ripeberry - Her sleep has always been bad,she can be up during the night or up very early. What's daft is that she can sleep through thunderstorms, fireworks, noisy kids, cars, telephone but can still wake during the night or be up very early Grrrrr

[Ripeberry]

My daughter has a trampoline but managed to break the netting around it. Thing is, she does not drink juice or squash, only likes milk and water, so I can't blame them.
I tried banning sweets for a week and she was still all over the place...too much energy.
When she was a baby we ended up putting her to bed at 10pm, just to get a decent night's sleep!
But to be fair, once she is asleep it is all the way through, never wakes up in the middle of the night and is a VERY deep sleeper.

[shockers]

WowOoo how did you go about doing yoga with your DS? I've been looking for some information or a class because I want to do it with my DD.

[WowOoo]

Vanessaw, sounds like my son.

As crazy as this sounds have you tried meditation or yoga?

I really think it's improved my sons concentration and ability to keep still. I jsut wish I could find more time to do nothing with him if you see what I mean!!

Quiet time in most unstimulating room in house helps here. ( a nice warm bath with toys away does it sometimes)

[shockers]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I meant that he has always had problems with aspartmane but we thought sugar was ok... it appears that the ready made-up ribena in cartons has too much sugar and it has a similar effect.

Our trampoline is the single best purchase I've ever made!

[vanessaw200]

Thanks Heated, will look at the website very soon.

Ripeberry, sounds like mine at 4, at school she bit more quiet tho very fidgety and has to have a soft toy to hold to keep still or she disturbs the other children. She dropped her naps at an early age.
Do you put your child to bed early or later to ensure they get up later ???
I wish someone would invent a hamster wheel, I've been told to get a trampoline!!

Shockers - I've just been looking at squash drinks and according to the labels of Ribena it doesn't contain aspartmane unless Ive gone mad and can't read and I compared it with the others and the only one that did have aspartmane was Robinsons squash drink

[zebramummy]

mrs preg - when you say red and orange coloured, surely you mean those with colourings, rather than, say, a tin of tomatoes - is this correct?

[shockers]

Mine are bad with sweetners, esp aspartmane but recently we have stopped Ds from getting cartons of ribena out of the vending machine at swimming because he is truly horrible afterwards... loud, fidgety, bolshy. He is pretty darn lovely most of the time and I consider myself a very lucky mum but sugar and sweetners do have a very negative effect on him.

[Ripeberry]

That sounds like my 7yr old! She is still all over the place and likes to be a 'Lion' and will jump at you and crawl on the floor.....BUT, she is very quiet a school and behaves most of the time and the teachers can't believe that she is such a handfull at home.
It does get very tiring, but she's never slept much, dropped her naps at 19 months and most nights will just manage 8hrs sleep.
I was hyper as a child, it's just nervous energy and I would rather that, than a child who just sat there and never moved.
Just wish someone would invent a kid 'hamster wheel' so that we could power the house

[Heated]

simply supplements

DV15 discount code gives you £2 off if you spend £15.

But there must be other places that stock it too. Avoid Halibo Omega 3 for Kids which Sainsburys stock as they contain aspartame.

[vanessaw200]

Heated - Where would I get SimplySupplements, would be able to get them in the supermarkets ?? I'll go into Sainburys tomorrow and have a look. She won't drink much water! Yes, she is young for school, it has really shown up. Her teacher says she very immature for school at the moment and it would have been better if she was 5 when she started, bit late now!!

tryingtoleave - I'm gonna try changing the juice for now, luckily she's not too into jam or sultanas but does has raisins in her lunchbox for school.

Thanks for the replies

[tryingtoleave]

I feel like I am becoming a diet crank on mn, but juice was one of the first things we stopped with ds (together with sultanas and jam) and it made a big difference with ds. Ribena would be very high in salycilates, which are a trigger for a lot of hyperactive children. We're currently experimenting with taking wheat out of his diet and he's stopped waking at night (he's 3 and hadn't slept through since 4 months).

You could have a look at this book, which is an introduction to the elimination diet www.amazon.co.uk/Fed-Up-Understanding-Affects-Child/dp/1741667259/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=125&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21 7075113&sr=8-2

[Heated]

Omega 3 has shown good results for improving concentration - SimplySupplements do them for over 3s. I recommend these as they don't contain aspartame, a trigger hyper behaviour. Also does Ribena contain aspartame? Might be worth swapping to just water or Sainsbury's own squash which is aspartame free.

And she is very young for school, being a August birthday.

[jabberwocky]

Sensory Seeker is a category of Sensory Processing Disorder. Might be something to look into as well as the Highly Sensitive Child. We are in the US and can get melatonin over the counter. It only takes 1/2 gram for ds1 so a tiny dose but makes such a difference. He's 6 and will remind me if I forget to give it to him at night.

[kneedeepinthedirtylaundry]

my DS is the same ? no more than 10 hours per night and is constantly on the move. never stops talking, too! and it's hard to get him to calm down ever. It's normal for some kids. and i reckon they will all just calm down themselves over time. But it is frustrating when a pretty substantial four year old bodily throws themselves at you repeatedly ? i know!

[vanessaw200]

jabberwocky - I've never heard of Sensory Seeker ?? When I used a private sleep clinic, they told me not to use melatonin. They recommended Phenergan, which worked well for the 1st month. But now chemists won't sell it over the counter. When the Paedatrician gave it to us on prescription, it didn't work no more. The Paedatrician wouldn't give us melatonin either.

[jabberwocky]

It's possible she is a Sensory Seeker. They can have lots of problems with sleep as well as the sensory processing. Ds1 has to have melatonin every night and then sleeps wonderfully.