Absolutely desperate - can't cope with ds1 (5) and ds2 (3) together anymore

[smoggie]

This is probably a familiar story but I'm just at the end of my tether and in need of advice asap please.
DS1 and Ds2 are fantastic when they're alone. Both very bright, sparky children who require lots of entertainment/stimulation etc. When they are together however, they just become unbearable. They get in a spiral of behaviour which invlves wrestling /pulling around(usually ending up with one of them getting hurt), ignoring me whenever I ask them to stop until I shout it, laughing hysterically when I try to tell them off especiallyt when I'm enraged. THis happens at home and outside the home, but invariably it's in front of people and I always look as if I have absolutely no parenting skills whatsoever but believe me I've tried them all to get around this.
I've tried the quiet stern/threatening voice, I've tried the angry stare +/- threats/removal of priviliges(?sp), reward charts, "thinking time /time out" and I just don't know what to try next.
THey are current;y both in their rooms after they both arsed around in the doctors surgery resulting in them on the floor wrestling each other, when I got them in the car ds2 deliberately squirted his orange carton all over the window and door, when I shouted at him he just pissed himself laughing. WHen I got them in the house, ds1 banged the door open and it rebounded onto his cheek, so whilst I'm conforting him ds2 thinks this is hilarious and deliberately does the same so that his head bangs on it - twice - after being told No the first time. I came in and put them both in their rooms.

Ds1 will always apologise within 5 mins and be properly sorry, but this doesn't translate into changed behaviour next time around. ds2 just thinks this is a huge joke.
I amd starting to just despair and am shocked by how angry this is making me at the time. I had to go in the bathroom and calm down before I broke one of the house doors through slamming it so hard.
We've always tried to use positive parenting, but sometimes I just want them to behave when theyre asked to and just bloody well stop when they're told.
Please can someone help me because I'm afraifd one of them is going to really hurt them selves soon when they arse around because they just don't have any spatial awareness and bang into things and just won't stop.
Ds2 is just recovering from fratured femur when ds1 tripped him up, I mean, how much more do I have to say to them to hammer this home - their behaviour has already hurt one of them and if they don't listen to me when I say stop it's going to happen again.
sorry this is so long, but I needed to get this out whilst they're in their rooms. Helps me get rid of my anger too.
Any tips?
TIA
I might have to go away from pc soon to sort them out but willkeep checking back

[MilaMae]

Forgot to say well done too, it's soooooo hard staying calm, when it's not pmt week I shall be trying to do more of the same.

[smoggie]

littlemisschatalot - hi, yes I've read the raising boys book too. It was a bit of a revelation, especially the part about the three stages and them needing different "mentors" in these - reckon I've only got 2 years before I'm redunant then as apparently it's 7 when they need paternal more than maternal
Thank you for your sane voices - especially about about most people recognising that it's unrealistic to expect children this age to immediately stop. I can get a bit hung up on the chilren I do see who are v sternly disciplined and forget all of the others who throw wobblers, ignore and are generally conforming to the norm!
I got distracted from reading "sibling rivalry" last night becauese my mum gave me a copy of "secret life of slummy mummy". I thought the boys would benefit more from a mummy who had chilled out and had a laugh than with the latter than one who was strung out and over analysing with the former. Found myself wanting to sneak a quick few pages whilst brushing my teeth - always a telltale sign!!
Hope you all have peaceful bedtimes and a relaxing evening before tonorrow's onslaught

[moosemama]

I came to the conclusion that the boys were 'feeding' off my stress and anger as well. They are also fed up of each other's company so yesterday we had a 'different rooms' day. Spent the day rotating them - one at the kitchen table colouring or doing something crafty and one playing in their room, then switch over.

It seemed to help such a lot. Not one cross word or tale telling incident and no tears (them or me ).

I was calmer thanks to the peace and they were calmer because I was.

This morning they are both sitting at the table doing puzzles and colouring, they have been so much better but at the first hint of trouble it will be different rooms again. We are going to Grandmas this afternoon where they always seem to be better behaved - and I get to eat cake - which also helps!

[Othersideofthechannel]

Moosemama, how did you introduce the idea of a different rooms day? Sometimes that is what DS and DD need because either they have had enough of each others company or are too tired to be patient with a sibling. I just know that I couldn't announce 'right, today we are having a different rooms day'. The idea would have to come from them.

[scattyspice]

Great thread.
I also have a 5 yo and 3 yo and same trouble. I agree, I get more stressed by their behaviour when out and about and i rarely take them shopping for this reason.

I have trouble staying calm though and end up shouting which probably just raises the general chaos rather than surpressing it.

[smoggie]

Well, jsut as I thought I'd got this thing licked, ds1 throws the mother of all wobblers. Again it was them both getting into one of their silly messing around stages at bedtime. I ask them to stop, try to ignore, issue ultimatums, try to seperate...NOTHING works. they just get ridiculously silly then it turns nasty as I get more and more annoyed and try to put ds1 in another room, I have to physically restrain him so that he doesn't leave, then he keeps throwing punches at me. proper angry intentional punches.
I'm FED UP with being treated like this and nothing I do seems to change it. He doesn't listen, he doesn't change (longterm) and can't control his anger.
What on earth do I do next?

[smoggie]

Ok, so I've been browsing Supernanny website and have drawn up some house rules that we can discuss/amend etc.

1. We listen
2. We don?t talk over the top of each other
3. We don?t shout
4. We stop when we are asked to
5. We don?t push/pull/shove/pull down anyone
6. If we feel angry we tell people, walk away and count to 10.
7. We NEVER hit anyone
8. We NEVER spit (ds2's current favorite to annoy me)
9. We are NEVER rude.

10. Always say please
11. Always say thank you

I'm about to print out a reward chart.
I'm starting tomorrow off with a plan for each day.
Ds1 has point blank refused to do any homework over the holidays, so this is going to be part of the reward chart, he does half an hour each day and adheres to the rules above then he gets the reward of his choice.

I just really feel like I've let myself down tonight by getting so angry with him. Everything I read about 'acknowledging he feelings etc to disperse his anger went out of the window and I reverted to being angry because he just wasn't doing as he was told.
I said a really awful thing that how he was behaving wasn't how 5 year olds normally behave, I compared him to his friends and said x, y, and z would never behave like this. FFS why did I say that?

[Othersideofthechannel]

We all lose it from time to time.

I don't think it is realistic to expect children of 5 and 3 to follow those rules all the time. But it's something to aim for and if you are following them too will help you model respectful behaviour.

[Desiderata]

I feel for you smoggie, and I only have the one.

He's three, four in November, and the last few weeks he's been appalling.

Tonight, it was 'I hate you, I don't want you for my mum. You're rubbish at it.'

I sent him straight to bed, and believe me, I could have walloped him, only I don't wallop kids.

The trouble is, you end up thinking they're right, don't you?

[Othersideofthechannel]

DD is 4 in December and she is 'not my friend' and 'my best friend' every day, several times a day.

They live so much in the moment.