Absolutely desperate - can't cope with ds1 (5) and ds2 (3) together anymore

[smoggie]

This is probably a familiar story but I'm just at the end of my tether and in need of advice asap please.
DS1 and Ds2 are fantastic when they're alone. Both very bright, sparky children who require lots of entertainment/stimulation etc. When they are together however, they just become unbearable. They get in a spiral of behaviour which invlves wrestling /pulling around(usually ending up with one of them getting hurt), ignoring me whenever I ask them to stop until I shout it, laughing hysterically when I try to tell them off especiallyt when I'm enraged. THis happens at home and outside the home, but invariably it's in front of people and I always look as if I have absolutely no parenting skills whatsoever but believe me I've tried them all to get around this.
I've tried the quiet stern/threatening voice, I've tried the angry stare +/- threats/removal of priviliges(?sp), reward charts, "thinking time /time out" and I just don't know what to try next.
THey are current;y both in their rooms after they both arsed around in the doctors surgery resulting in them on the floor wrestling each other, when I got them in the car ds2 deliberately squirted his orange carton all over the window and door, when I shouted at him he just pissed himself laughing. WHen I got them in the house, ds1 banged the door open and it rebounded onto his cheek, so whilst I'm conforting him ds2 thinks this is hilarious and deliberately does the same so that his head bangs on it - twice - after being told No the first time. I came in and put them both in their rooms.

Ds1 will always apologise within 5 mins and be properly sorry, but this doesn't translate into changed behaviour next time around. ds2 just thinks this is a huge joke.
I amd starting to just despair and am shocked by how angry this is making me at the time. I had to go in the bathroom and calm down before I broke one of the house doors through slamming it so hard.
We've always tried to use positive parenting, but sometimes I just want them to behave when theyre asked to and just bloody well stop when they're told.
Please can someone help me because I'm afraifd one of them is going to really hurt them selves soon when they arse around because they just don't have any spatial awareness and bang into things and just won't stop.
Ds2 is just recovering from fratured femur when ds1 tripped him up, I mean, how much more do I have to say to them to hammer this home - their behaviour has already hurt one of them and if they don't listen to me when I say stop it's going to happen again.
sorry this is so long, but I needed to get this out whilst they're in their rooms. Helps me get rid of my anger too.
Any tips?
TIA
I might have to go away from pc soon to sort them out but willkeep checking back

[Othersideofthechannel]

DD is 4 in December and she is 'not my friend' and 'my best friend' every day, several times a day.

They live so much in the moment.

[Desiderata]

I feel for you smoggie, and I only have the one.

He's three, four in November, and the last few weeks he's been appalling.

Tonight, it was 'I hate you, I don't want you for my mum. You're rubbish at it.'

I sent him straight to bed, and believe me, I could have walloped him, only I don't wallop kids.

The trouble is, you end up thinking they're right, don't you?

[Othersideofthechannel]

We all lose it from time to time.

I don't think it is realistic to expect children of 5 and 3 to follow those rules all the time. But it's something to aim for and if you are following them too will help you model respectful behaviour.

[smoggie]

Ok, so I've been browsing Supernanny website and have drawn up some house rules that we can discuss/amend etc.

1. We listen
2. We don?t talk over the top of each other
3. We don?t shout
4. We stop when we are asked to
5. We don?t push/pull/shove/pull down anyone
6. If we feel angry we tell people, walk away and count to 10.
7. We NEVER hit anyone
8. We NEVER spit (ds2's current favorite to annoy me)
9. We are NEVER rude.

10. Always say please
11. Always say thank you

I'm about to print out a reward chart.
I'm starting tomorrow off with a plan for each day.
Ds1 has point blank refused to do any homework over the holidays, so this is going to be part of the reward chart, he does half an hour each day and adheres to the rules above then he gets the reward of his choice.

I just really feel like I've let myself down tonight by getting so angry with him. Everything I read about 'acknowledging he feelings etc to disperse his anger went out of the window and I reverted to being angry because he just wasn't doing as he was told.
I said a really awful thing that how he was behaving wasn't how 5 year olds normally behave, I compared him to his friends and said x, y, and z would never behave like this. FFS why did I say that?

[smoggie]

Well, jsut as I thought I'd got this thing licked, ds1 throws the mother of all wobblers. Again it was them both getting into one of their silly messing around stages at bedtime. I ask them to stop, try to ignore, issue ultimatums, try to seperate...NOTHING works. they just get ridiculously silly then it turns nasty as I get more and more annoyed and try to put ds1 in another room, I have to physically restrain him so that he doesn't leave, then he keeps throwing punches at me. proper angry intentional punches.
I'm FED UP with being treated like this and nothing I do seems to change it. He doesn't listen, he doesn't change (longterm) and can't control his anger.
What on earth do I do next?

[scattyspice]

Great thread.
I also have a 5 yo and 3 yo and same trouble. I agree, I get more stressed by their behaviour when out and about and i rarely take them shopping for this reason.

I have trouble staying calm though and end up shouting which probably just raises the general chaos rather than surpressing it.

[Othersideofthechannel]

Moosemama, how did you introduce the idea of a different rooms day? Sometimes that is what DS and DD need because either they have had enough of each others company or are too tired to be patient with a sibling. I just know that I couldn't announce 'right, today we are having a different rooms day'. The idea would have to come from them.

[moosemama]

I came to the conclusion that the boys were 'feeding' off my stress and anger as well. They are also fed up of each other's company so yesterday we had a 'different rooms' day. Spent the day rotating them - one at the kitchen table colouring or doing something crafty and one playing in their room, then switch over.

It seemed to help such a lot. Not one cross word or tale telling incident and no tears (them or me ).

I was calmer thanks to the peace and they were calmer because I was.

This morning they are both sitting at the table doing puzzles and colouring, they have been so much better but at the first hint of trouble it will be different rooms again. We are going to Grandmas this afternoon where they always seem to be better behaved - and I get to eat cake - which also helps!

[smoggie]

littlemisschatalot - hi, yes I've read the raising boys book too. It was a bit of a revelation, especially the part about the three stages and them needing different "mentors" in these - reckon I've only got 2 years before I'm redunant then as apparently it's 7 when they need paternal more than maternal
Thank you for your sane voices - especially about about most people recognising that it's unrealistic to expect children this age to immediately stop. I can get a bit hung up on the chilren I do see who are v sternly disciplined and forget all of the others who throw wobblers, ignore and are generally conforming to the norm!
I got distracted from reading "sibling rivalry" last night becauese my mum gave me a copy of "secret life of slummy mummy". I thought the boys would benefit more from a mummy who had chilled out and had a laugh than with the latter than one who was strung out and over analysing with the former. Found myself wanting to sneak a quick few pages whilst brushing my teeth - always a telltale sign!!
Hope you all have peaceful bedtimes and a relaxing evening before tonorrow's onslaught

[MilaMae]

Forgot to say well done too, it's soooooo hard staying calm, when it's not pmt week I shall be trying to do more of the same.

[littlemisschatalot]

oh just seen this. my 2 are both ds..one 4 one 3. sympathies. its just the same here. have you read raising boys by steven bidulph?
it doesnt have any advice per se but tries to educate us as to why boys behave like they do. apparently age 4-6 they have the nost testosterone in their bodies that they will ever have.
mine have gone from lovely toddlers to aggressive, fighting, sullen cheeky monsters.
they charge at me like they are in a scrum, jump on my back when i am kneeling down to do shoes..and my 3 yr ols shouting at me.."stop shouting at me "
x hopefully it will pass

[HonoriaGlossop]

Yes I think it is REALLY hard when you feel shown up and embarrassed by your own kids - it is a powerful need to NOT be seen in what seems to you an embarrassing light by other people.

I must say though, that I am always MOST impressed by people who talk to their children calmly and politely even when they are being awful; 99% of adults out there have been there and actually do understand so it's good to remember that and not get too hung up on how you are seen when in public. Adults whose good opinion is worth anything wouldn't expect a lively 5 and 3 yr old to drop everything at one word from their parent, they understand that parenting is a bit more complicated than that!

I've known since I had DS how important it is to remain calm even when incredibly provoked; and this holiday (DS has had lots of visitors, playdates, and a party and a day out etc etc!) has shown me both in RL and various threads on here how CALM is the key. No, not 100% possible as we are human, but basically smoggie what you did today was remain calm - which helped you present the facts to the boys in a way they immediately related to - the tidying up! - and also did not whip them up into ever greater frenzy. They do feed off adults' anger...

well done to you I say, they sound like they have been HARD going this holiday!

[MilaMae]

We're doing ok-ish!!!!! Mila of shoe shopping thread They are a lot better today,towing the line more(combination of my rants sinking in and new sticker charts) but I'm knackered and an irritable old bag,any patience I ever had has disappeared completely after this weeks events.

I'm a little sad that I have to be such an old dragon in order to make them behave at times and feel crap as have errupted a few times today(sometimes more than the crime warranted). Want to be one of those mums that never raises her voice,smiles serenely and just has to use THE glare from time to time. Sadly not to be methinks.

Feel like I could do with a week in a darkened room now. Made the mistake of getting the stamper pens out, now asking myself if 5 mins of peace was worth 3 kids covered in ink stamps and a flood in the kitchen as they washed off.

Has stopped raining this pm so they are off the ceiling excited that they can play in the garden. Can hear twin 1 shouting "die,die"!!!!! Let's hope it's just a game

Well it's Friday tomorrow-yippee so will have dp around to help however we have a 5 hour journey to Surrey (sob)and a week at the in-laws to tackle. Just dragged them down to the Co-op to stock up on wine, terrified MIL won't have any in!!!!!

[smoggie]

Well, update - boys were OK (ish yeaterday) as one was in nursery and I had the oldest all day to get school shoes etc. All OK......until we went to my mum and dads after collecting ds1's swimming certificate (cue lots of praise and encouragement). They both did their usual thing of getting over excited and silly culminating in ds1 walking all over the muddy front garden (after being told not to), then flicking his shoe at the open front door splattering said door and hallway with mud!
When I called him to come and sort it out, he laughed, ran away and refused t ocome.......4 times.
I'm afraid to say I lost it and grabbed hold of him and pulled him back into the house to have a little chat. I gave him some kitchen roll and to be fair he did clear it up, but I was shaking with anger. I think it's just the downright defiance that does it....the laughing when I'm enraged just adds insult to injury.
Anyway, after continued namecalling of me "stupid fat warthog" being the one that sticks on my mind I kept a stony silence all the way home in the car.
Dh gave him a good talking to and after a few more mini wobblers he calmed down and BIG apologies. We had a few really good chats with him and dh in partic to his credit was fantastic.
So, new day and new resolve.
We decided last night that my anger was mainly at not being seen by others (my parents/neighbour) to be in charge of them and in control, that they just didn't have any fear of me or my voice. THen decided actually is that such a bad thing (the fear I mean)?
So, new policy is to just tell them that we're not happy with what they're doing and outline what I expect them to do (i.e. clear it up and apologise) and just sit an wait until it has finished. I think they seem to thrive on getting an angry reactiuon from me, so the hope is, that if they don't get that reaction they will calm down and rectify the situation sooner.
God, it's going to be hard.
I've already put it into practice once today - they both decided it was HILARIOUS to scoop handfulls of the decorative stones from the front garden and put them in the porch, so I told them I didn't want them to do it, they kept going so I said "if you want to carry on, then I just want you to know that it will take you longer to clear it up at the end". They soon got bored and ds1 realised that the clearing up took MUCH longer than the initial fun of putting them there. He also was V annoyed at ds2 who didn't help to clear them up. Lesson learned ther eI think...for now anyway. Calmer house today, still silly bits, but I think I'm handling them differently and they can see it doesn't get to me as much.
Fingers crossed.
How's everyone else doing?

[Ready4anotherCoffee]

ooooh, don't get me started. My current one is if you do/don't do xyz you'll get a time-out has resulted in ds (4.5) pestering for one.

I have to go to homebase to get stuff to fix the dds wardrobe after ds and dd1 trashed the dds bedroom and wrecked the wardrobe, then sat laughing manically. the steam from my ears can be seen in John O'Groats!

It's the egging each other on that is driving me potty!

[meemar]

I can tell it's bad in our house too.

DS2's favourite game at the moment is telling random toys "you have to sit on the step for 2 minutes for being naughty." or "no shouting at bedtime or you won't get a sticker"

[VirginiaWoolf]

Hmm, the high point (!?!) of yesterday for me was hearing an angry voice bellowing, "We don't shout in this house!" and realising that unfortunately it was mine......

[Othersideofthechannel]

Good luck, it's horrible when one turns into 'shouty mum'.
It really gets my goat when DS laughs at me when I am trying to explain how dangerous what he is doing is.

[popsycal]

this could be me
ds1 was 6 last week and ds2 is almost 3 and a hakf
so loud, rough, bickerring, etc
fresh air and LOTS of walking helps but isnt always possible (34 weeks pregnant!)

i feel your pain

[smoggie]

otherside of the channel....ahhhhhhhh, I bought that as a job lot with "how to listen", but naively haven't read it yet as there hadn't been a problem until now...and I'd forgotten I had it!!
Looks like I'll be burning the midnight oil tonight.
Meemar if I pick up any gems from the books I'll post them here!

[Othersideofthechannel]

Have you read 'sibling rivalry'?

I think there's a bit about wrestling that basically says teach them to tell the other when they've had enough and leave them to it.

[meemar]

smoggie I feel for you . Since the summer holidays started my DS1 (5) and DS2 (nearly 3) have been total pains.

They alternate between bickering and ganging up together to cause mess/chaos and believing it's one big joke.

DS2 is 'naughtier' of the two, and DS1 eggs him on and gets him to do things which will result in a telling off. Like yours, DS1 is always 'really really sorry mummy' afterwards . Until next time.

They have starting messing about at bedtime, (which they never did during term time) and star chart has gone out the window because I've lost the will to carry on with it.

Thank god there are only 3 weeks to go. I've never shouted as much as I have recently

[smoggie]

alannahsmummy - for you too. Do you have anyone you can call on to divide and conquer? Ds2 is in nursery tomorrow so I'm taking ds1 to sort out school shoes on his own and have a game of football with him. I just know he'll be fine tomorrow (so will ds2 in nursery) but the minute I collect him they will start winding each other up/pulling/tormenting/being silly.

Hopefully now they're in bed I can recharge and plan my strategy for tomorrow.
Think I'll dust down my copy of "how to talk" tonight.

[msdemeanor]

We could set up our own factory with all these awful kids
Fab! Get 'em trained up and we can compete on price with China. What do you say, get 'em making toys or clothes?

[alannahsmummy]

This could be my thread,
dd 6.9, ds 2.10.
dd worse out of both, torments does not listen ignores me, strops, noisey and talks non stop so you don't get 2 mins peace. ds is slowley starting to copy although he is great without dd around.
We don't get invited to houses/playdates im sure relatives hide when we call.

Feel like running away and giving her away.
How sad