5 year old pooing in his pants

[kitmonster]

This is a behavioural problem, not a potty training problem. This is my first post on this site and one of desperation. I need professional help and if you have any phone numbers / web addresses / organisations that deal with pooing rather than bed wetting please, please let me know. All I can find is about potty training / bed wetting and my problem is behavioural. If you want all the messy details please read on.

My son, Ben is now 5 and a half. He was potty trained at 3 but still wears nappies at night. He's a very deep sleeper and we're dealing with that issue. A year ago he started occasionally pooing his pants. The first time it happened was 18 months after his last accident. I was away camping with him and it was a five minute walk to the loo, so required some effort to ask me to take him and the walk to the loo. It was a little inconvenient and I thought nothing more of it. He then pooed his pants again the following week at home whilst playing. Over the next few months we would have one or two incidents a week.

Now it's almost a daily occurrence. He's done it a couple of times at school but hasn't told anyone. He can quite happily sit in it. I notice it because of the smell. He normally does it after school sometime between 5 and 6pm. He's now started pooing himself first thing in the morning. This week he's pooed himself three times after school and twice in the morning. Even when he doesn't his pants are very dirty - he wont wipe his bottom unless he's supervised.

He's a bright kid and does very well at school. He loves school. He has a good bunch of friends who fortunately aren't yet aware of what's going on. I'm sure the problem is down to changes in his life. These changes can't be reversed and I have to find a solution.

Ben was in a nursery before going to school. He was very happy there and the problems have only started since he left. In September he started school. In October he had a new baby brother. In March my wife went back to work and I became a stay at home Dad. All of these events impacted on him. And it's easy to say speculate which of these events caused the problem. What I need is help resolving it. I think I have tried everything.

I love being at home with my children - it's the best job in the world. I hate what this is doing to my relationship with Ben. It does make me very upset / angry. He is very good at trying to hide the problem from me - I find dirty nappies stuffed behind draws, presenting me with clean pants I know he's taken straight out of the draw. He knows it's a problem. He is very sorry and promises it wont happen again. But it does.

He had a very dirty nappy this morning. There was poo in the bed, all over his pyjamas he he smelt very bad. I lost my temper which was not at all helpful. Later over breakfast we talked about it. He was playing hide and seek with an imaginary friend. He was hiding under his duvet. He didn't want his friend to see him if he got out of bed to go to the toilet. He always has an excuse - it's normally because he's busy doing something and doesn't want to miss out - playing with his friends, colouring a picture, missing part of a film etc.

Thanks for reading all about my problem. I hope you can point me in the right direction. I need some serious help, it's ruining my relationship with my son.

[girasole]

Hi, we have recently had an almost identical situation with DS, 4. It has been resolved (hopefully) in the last couple of months but I spent hours trawling through old threads on here looking for advice about it so I sympathise immensely.

With DS it was definitely related to anxiety, although that wasn't clear to us at the time.
What worked for us was lots and lots of praise and ecouragement, for everything, not just toilet issues! More time spent cuddling and being affectionate with him, and ignoring all bad behaviour as much as possible. We basically love-bombed him in a effort to raise his self-esteem .
We also introduced a star chart with bribes prizes given at regular intervals which were spaced out as time went on, e.g a prize for every three stars initially, becoming a prize for every ten stars by the end.

This worked almost immediately for us, and we don't use the star chart anymore but we have continued with the other stuff. It is obvious to us now that he is a much happier child, but we hadn't thought he was unhappy before IYSWIM.

By the way DS is also a very deep sleeper and not dry at night. I think you should delay dealing with that matter entirely until you have resolved the current issue with the pooing.

[kitmonster]

Thankyou so much for all the helpful advice and it's good to know I'm not alone. It was Dad's day at school on Friday so I spent quite a lot of time with him at school. This was very useful. Each classroom has it's own toilets and they are clean and available all the time. What I did notice was that quite a lot of the other children smelt of wee / poo! Clearly the teacher / teacher assistant have no sense of smell or are desensitised to the smell. At least I don't have to worry about him being isolated - well at least for now.

Since I posted, I have started rewarding good toilet behaviour and ignoring / playing down any accidents. Ben has responded by pooing himself at least once a day, wetting himself - something he hasn't been doing and pooing in the bath! Aren't children wonderful . . . I'm going to carry on asking him to go to the toilet at regular times and rewarding good behaviour. My big concern is my wife who is less believing and at the moment and had a very tough day yesterday. She isn't used to the day to day I get, but does help out a lot at the weekends. So she had to deal with messy nappy first thing, wetting himself and the poo in the bath. She ended up in tears and admitted to me that she doesn't want to have anything to do with her first born. I wonder if the behaviour is down to the lack of a 24/7 loving female? When he was at the nursery all the staff were women and adored him. He built very strong bonds with a couple of them. When he left he my wife went on maternity leave and initially spent a lot of quality time with him. And then number 2 arrived and the one to one attention declined. She experienced the quite normal behaviour of distancing her first born and I stepped in. Almost every couple we have spoked to who have more than one child, talk about how there feelings for their first born changed when a second child was born. Mostly feelings of annoyance. We try and be as fair as we can. It's hard though. You can't be cross with a baby for throwing food on the floor but you are when it's a five year old. And of course, Ben will throw food on the floor because he wants attention.

We clearly have a long way to go. My big hope is this is the low point.

[kitmonster]

I agree that we need to resolve the pooing before we move on to dry nights. These are very different problems and the bed wetting doesn't bother me. It's surprisingly common in 5 / 6 year old boys.

[Littlefish]

Hi Kitmonster - sorry things are so tough for you all at the moment. I do think your dw's reaction is interesting. Your ds needs real consistency from you both at the moment, and it sounds as though your dw is struggling. I don't think Ben's behaviour could be put down to the "lack of a 24/7 loving female?", but some of it may be down to missing parts of the relationship with his mum. I'm not suggesting there is anything missing from his relationship with you (as that sounds relationship sounds loving and supportive). However, Ben may well be picking up on the tensions from his mum.

A practical point. You say that you are going to "carry on asking him to go to the toilet at regular times". Does he always comply? I know it's semantics, but saying "now it's time to go to the loo" is better than "do you want to go to the loo". Over time, you want him to recognise when he needs to go, but to start with, I think you need to tell him that it's time. He (and you) really need some success with this, and making sure that as often as possible he's on the loo when he poos will really help this.

You say he's having at least one accident a day - is there a pattern to this?

Re. school - are you sure it's the children that smell, and not just the toilets? In my experience, toilets near classrooms always smell!

[lizziemun]

I had this with dd1 who is 4yrs. She has been toilet trained since she was 2yrs.

The way i dealt with it was to do a sticker chart.

She choose a toy she wanted and she had would get a sticker for each morning/afternoon for a week that she had clean knickers or went to the toilet. It only took a week to stop her from pooing in her knickers.

I think it became a habit because she was getting attention from me, because i had just had dd2 who was very demanding.

[missymum]

hi kitmonster. am sorry you are having such a nightmare. i am a health professional who works with kids with varying degrees of behavioural probs including the one you describe with your son. can i suggest you get hold of a very simple short story book called 'sneaky poo'. you can possibly get it free from your health visitor or school nurse or failing that, try the internet. i would suggest to talk to your school nurse anyway as she may be helpful..this problem is much more common then you may realise and there is help out there. the book is based on a narrative approach and i have found that children like it and it can be instrumental in solving the prob, good luck!

[chaos321]

All of my DC have to have their poos 'managed' ie, encouraged to sit on the potty/toilet at regular times. When DS1 really needs to go, but won't, I go with him to the loo, and read with him. (Sneaky time to get his reading done!(). Maybe it would help your son if you went with him and sat with him?

HTH!

[Romy7]

DS1 is 6 - same issues (and still wet at night), although not so much 'quantity' perhaps, which is why we're still looking at constipation as an issue... he sits on the toilet at 6.30 and doesn't get in the bath until he has performed (!) as otherwise we get the night-time stuff happening. He has been a lot better since we instigated the 6.30 thing... I might have to move this forward to just after school though, as we seem to be getting a certain amount of 'leakage' between 5 and 6 too...
I'm actually with dashboard - I think it is behavioural in that he just can't be bothered to go to the toilet (although when I used that word to the gp I thought he was going to have a coronary) and that it will just be a matter of time before he decides himself that it is unacceptable socially.
It might be a long time coming though, because at the moment he doesn't give a monkeys.
lol at all the kids smelling grotty tho - there's hope yet...

[beccav]

Same problem with my DS. It did improve dramatically when he was allowed to play games on my mobile phone while on the toilet. Unfortunately that came to an end when he dropped and flushed! my phone down the loo....Back to books now, not nearly as enticing. Also against all current thoughts on sweet bribes - we offered a sweet for a poo - which also works in our "no sweets allowed" house. Not sure what hang-ups it is going to leave him with when he grows up though!

It is so hard not to be angry when faced with yet another messy pair of pants. I find I don't get so angry if I just bin the pants and don't try washing them.....

[girlywhirly]

Kitmonster, I have some more suggestions.

Separation from Mummy seems to be an issue, and also DS feels that she doesn't llove him because he soils himself. How about Mummy phones him from work each day, so he can have a brief chat? Or Mummy sends an email especially for him which you can read out to him. Both exclusively for him and do not include the baby, might reassure him a bit. Agree a strategy with Mummy for managing DS toileting and how you deal with mishaps. You must both be consistent in your approach, otherwise it will not work.

Borrow from the library, or buy, a book for 4-7 yr olds on anatomy and physiology. You can talk about how his digestive system works, and inject a bit of humour discussing burps, hiccups and farts! I've never known a 5yo who doesn't find them funny. It may be that he wishes his body didn't make poo, because all it does is get him into trouble. If he is witholding poo until he can't hold on any more, this may help him understand that when it needs to come out, it needs to come out! And you are not focussing on just the digestion system, but can learn about other body systems too.

Hope this helps. Keep us updated!

[Arabica]

Hi, my DS (7) unfortunately has this issue, tooI'm pretty sure the foundations are emotional. He holds back when he needs to go and has skiddy pants about four times a weekwhen it happens, he pretends it hasn't but gets in such a bad mood that it's obvious even before we can smell anything.
To cut a very long story short, he was getting much better at pooing regularly in the right place when his little sister (now nearly 2) was born. She had feeding problems at birth, so I stayed in hospital with her for 5 weeks. She's needed lots of attention from health professionals since. Luckily the child development centre that looks after DD helps siblings too and we have had 2 sessions of family psychotherapy which I think are helping him to talk through his emotions. Although so far not much change with the skiddy pants...early days though.

[mar1974]

sounds like your son may have encopresis,my daughter went through the same thing started at 2 yrs old and seemed to escalate as she got older i used to think that it was behavioural but learnt that the reason why they hide it from you is because they feel embarrassed and ashamed this is a condition that effects the bowel people may see it as constipation,others may see it as being at some time the child may have had a bad experience with the toilet (hard poo that really hurt especially in younger children so they start to hold it in and feel to scared to go because it hurts to much,anxiety of course this can lead to other problems like blockage in the bowel which causes faecal seepage,this is when small amounts of poo seep out around the blockage which would explain why your sons accidents started accurring more frequently my daughter went from 1 to 2 a week to 2to 4 times a day some being 20 minutes apart,very fustrating especially when your grocery shopping and oopss whats that smell and unfortunately everybody else does to lol!! been there many times.my daughter was getting teased at school which really effected her self esteem that was before i knew what was wrong with her,so you have to explain to the other children that your child is around that it is a condition that your child has no control over,do this preferably when your child is not present as this can be very embarrassing for them.good news is they do grow out of it eventually 8yrs old you might start to see a diffrence but every child is diffrent,dont punish your child for this as it is not their fault they simply do not know whats happening but do encourage him and let him know that hes not to blame and that mummy is going to help him the bbest way she knows how untill then just google encopresis and have a look at what it has to say best of luck for both of you.

[kim88]

this is a really tricky one that i have just about got my 5yo son out of after putting up with it for a yr when i fell pregnant with my daughter my sons already bad behavioral problems just got worse i got sad angry and upset to the point i cried with this problem then working together with a behavioural specialist we have just about got him clean during the day and are now starting on night our stratagy was to make him change himself and put his own pants in the was without speaking to him except for to tell him these orders then get on with whatever you where doing for a couple of minuiets but you need to persist and not just think its faster and easier to do it yourself witch i know it is sometimes it would take me 30mins or more for me to get him to put his pants in the wash but that hard work does pay off you can contact two way who specialise in these behavioural problems on 01908214258 hope this sheds a little light on your situation and good luck k x x

[ArrrghRunOutOfNames]

I have lots and lots of experience in this area and sypathise totally. Sorry, I disagree with a lot of the suggested solutions on here - sitting on the loo at a certain time etc. They can help a bit, but ime may not sort the problem.

Our child is very bright, very sensitive and had similar problems that escalated after our baby arrived. After trying so so many things, we tried a child psychologist and I have to say that we can see light at the end of the tunnel at last.

Where are you based? Do you have an e-mail address you can be contacted on? I will happily share any knowledge I can, as I know what you must be going thorugh. I would also suggest that you get him checked by the Dr as our child had impacted faeces as a result of witholding once the baby arrived. This was not the route cause of the problem though and we 'wasted' a year trying to get the impaction sorted only to be left with the original problem.

[piximon]

Hi kitmonster,
How are things now? My son started having incidents a while back, we traced it to the Eye Q liquid we were giving him, he already has a healthy diet and I think the extra oil just didn't agree with him, so he leaked. He said he just couldn't make it to the toilet on time, he hadn't realised etc.

Unfortunately by the time we realised what the problem was he'd got into the habit of it happening and hiding his pants etc. I also found it a struggle at times to cope with. I bought really cheap pants and would bin the especially awful ones. We've also been through several upheavals which I don't think helped and he did have a few accidents when he started school although not actually at school, even now we occasionally have to run home from with him shouting he doesn't know if he can make it but he'll do his best!

We tried many of the methods: books, sweets, regular timings etc. None were particularly successful for us, but worth a go. Actually the one thing that really got through to him (probably get shot down in flames) was making him help clean up the mess. It really appalled him and after that he made more of an effort to stay clean.
I do know how hard it is to stay calm just remember the mantra, this too shall pass.

[fluffymum]

Hi there,

I reckon he is simply missing Mummy. My husband used to work from home and recently took an office away from home...it took me a while to realise that the massive change in my son's behaviour was due to him missing his Dad being around.

Ask him if he is missing his Mummy, explain why she is not there during the day, maybe like my son he just didn't grasp the work thing. As far as my son (also 5 by the way) was concerned Daddy just wasn't there and it was weird not to get the cuddles...or see him for breakfast.

Worth a try, the pooing is usually a psychological thing related to some kind of stress. In my experience getting child to wipe poo up is not effective. Understandably you will get angry and frustrated about it once in a while...perfectly normal. Don't beat yourself up about it.

Shower the little lad with attention, try some Mummy time?

Good Luck, it will sort out.

[Heidi19]

I have just had a huge weight lifted off my shoulders to hear we are not alone. My 5 year old has been pooing in his pants for many years. He regularly sits on the floor and wiggles, he can also refuse to play as he is concerned of pooing. We have tried the bribes (rewards), the shouting and we have all been in tears. We were at the point of going to the doctors...but not anymore. Now i know we are not alone i feel we can tackle this again and reading all your advice we have a new plan!!!

[nappyvalley39]

My son is 5 and has been pooing in his pants since he was about 3.5 after a long clear period of no pooing in pants since potty training. He has never wet himself.

I too thought I would loose the will to live with this issue and felt very low at times when I felt I had tried every tool I had in the "parenting tool kit", it wasn't until I met a mum at pre-school that I realised their could be a solution. We are now on the rocky road to no pooing in the pants and I am no longer depressed by it.

These are my thoughts on the matter.

I think my son was constipated and somewhere along the line had and still has lost ability to connect the the sensation of stomach cramps to needing a poo. Especially if he is distracted by playing or school (which frankly must be one long distraction). He now doesn't poo in his pants anymore and will rush to the toilet when he can feel the poo coming out of his bum, as I get a running commentary from him on his poo and that is where we have got too on the poo improvement front.

I went to the doctor who put him on Movicol which meant that he could no longer hang onto the poo, if that was what he was doing, and he then gave us some advice on the behavioural training was the rest was then up to us.

The doctor advised us to put him on the toilet twice a day, straight after breakfast and after dinner as this is when the natural reaction to go for a poo is at its highest as new food is effectively going to be pushing that poo out of his bottom. He then had to sit on the toilet for ten minutes or have a poo. The act of sitting on the toilet with his legs apart I think helped gravity play its part in this and also taught him that pooing is not like weeing. It is not always instant and you have to wait and help the poo out.

The twice a day also helped him understand that much as you don't like it, we all poo and you have to poo every day for the rest of your life, so there is no squirming out of this one mate!

I also went to Primark and bought about 100 pairs of pants for about a fiver and absolutely refuse to wash any that are beyond the skiddy state. That really helped my state of mind.

The above regime (and thats what it felt like) really helped us establish a routine with my son and stopped the constant anxiety and nagging on our part for our son to go to the toilet. It eventually helped him become regular and 8 months down the line we have nearly cracked it. He will go to the toilet on his own, but still refuses to wipe his bum.

If you can be as matter as fact as you can about it, no star charts no getting cross absolutely no emotion. Make it a functional process that you execute every day (just like your own bowel movements). It takes any attention away from it and you won't find it as exhausting. You may find that he really kicks off at being told to sit on the toilet twice a day for the ten minutes, but once he gets that you are not going to budge on this one, you may see some improvement. Expect good days and bad days and set your sights on seeing major improvement in about ten months not ten days time. This is a biggie on the parenting scale, it is more common than you think and be kind to yourself. Good luck!!!!

[Rudmeister]

My son is also 5.5 years old and also used to Poo his pants regularly until recently. I found that he was embarrassed at school to poo in the school toilets so used to hold it in until he couldn't and then would spend the day with it in his pants or until the school noticed and had to change him. I used to get very frustrated with him and i don't think that helped at all. What i did do is help him to wipe his bottom correctly at home and encouraged him when we were out to do the same and after a while he started to happily do his poo's at school. He does occasionally slightly poo his pants normally when he hasn't got to the toilet in time, but he just needed his confidence lifted.

[Prettylittlebird2]

Hi, I was just wondering what the outcome was. I'm having the same problem

[Whathaveilost]

You may be better starting a new thread. The child in the OP will be at high school now and probably be in y8

[eastledang]

ArrrghRunOutOfNames - would you be able to share more, how do i msg you privately? thank you

[Mumof1andnomore]

Hi.. i am new on here.. and after a little help with the same problem my little girl has bee doing the same thing its like she turned lazy and cannot be botherd to go to the toilet some time its jst skids in her panta but then it full nuggets but never a full poo but she does it quiet a few times a day and our patients are running thin now please any advice is welcome