Help!! How the hell to get your 4yo to do as they are told??!!?

[OhWhatAPalaver]

I am almost at the end of my very long and stretched tether! My dd simply ignores any of my requests for her to do anything, it's infuriating and highly embarrassing in public. Eg, she wouldn't come and get dressed at swimming today, I had to try and run around after her and drag her back to the bench to get dressed! (not really running and not really dragging as I'm 35 weeks with dd2, which is making things much harder!)
She end up screaming, shouting, hitting and kicking and I was getting more and more annoyed with her, which didn't help.
She also screams very very loud indeed. I always think I look like a really terrible parent :(
I can't physically restrain her anymore either as she's very strong, her hits and kicks really hurt.
I felt terrible today as when she tried to run away again and I grabbed her wrist to try and stop her and she fell and hurt herself, which she screamed about very loudly for a long time. She then proceeded to hit and kick me several times while I tried to get her shoes on. Needless to say we left the changing room in a hurry. I feel really bad.
Part of the problem is my frustration, the fact that I could ask her to do something a hundred times and she would still ignore me really gets to me. She almost always does as her step-dad says straight away, although even he has been tested recently.
I don't know how I'm going to cope with a newborn and my 4yo behaving this badly, please help!!

[redexpat]

DD I need you to do xyz now. Can you do it yourself or do you need me to help?

For some reason making it about you with the I need you to makes it easier for them to process.

Also, pictures of her with her shoes on, or sitting on the loo or whatever. Then you can point to it at the same time as saying it to her.

[LoveFromUs]

So it's wrong to teach our children to be compliant?

[strawberrybubblegum]

The problem with punishment (which is presumably your approach, loveforus , since you suggested taking away all toys and everything they like until they comply) is that although it works in the short term, it comes at a high price long term. Children tend to become either rebellious or overly submissive - neither of which is great for their happiness as adults.

Think about how you feel when someone treats you disrespectfully, or makes you feel bad. Does it inspire you to improve? Or does it make you feel resentful - and either withdraw effort, or do/say something to make them feel bad back? Children aren't any different really.

Positive Discipline is a great book which explains this much better than I can.

[CodyKing]

So it's wrong to teach our children to be compliant?

No - somethings are non negotiable - brushing teeth - holding hands by the road -

Somethings they can choose - what to watch on TV which friends to play with what games to play

Somethings they can sometimes choose - what to eat - which drink - what clothes to wear

It's not all about compliance.

[Gowgirl]

I've been relying on bribery for years to get the horrors little angels to behave in public!

[OhWhatAPalaver]

Some great advice here, thanks :)
She loves being the winner at the moment so I'm going to go with positive persuasion/competitive approach as I think it's not something I do enough. It always works better than me just getting annoyed! Her step dad is great at this, which is why I think she sometimes responds better to him (he is a teacher though).
We do a mixture of star charts and praise etc when she's good, as I do believe good behaviour should be rewarded, and only if she's really, really bad we remove toys.
I think she's just having a funny phase as when I think about it it's only in the last week or so that she's been really difficult... It all seems to come out at once for some reason!

[cornishglos]

I do lots of positive a lot.
'You are such a good girl. You're a good listener and that's why we can do nice things like swimming. Mummy needs you to get dressed quickly now. Socks on, shoes on. Fantastic.'
Stick to what you want to achieve. Don't get drawn into conversations about behaviour/ rewards/ treats. Never use empty threats. Change your tone of voice when she's pushing it so she knows who is boss and that you're not impressed.
Lots of praise.

[LogicalThinking]

So it's wrong to teach our children to be compliant?
I wanted to raise my children to become well-adjusted, well-behaved adults. I wanted them to learn to be considerate and thoughtful of others, but also able to assert their own feelings and wishes and stand up for things they felt strongly about.
Total compliance just doesn't figure in that.

Breaking the rules, not co-operating and minor misbehaviour are not signs of bad parenting, they are signs of healthy development in children. That is how they learn. There is absolutely no need to punish them harshly when they have stepped out of line, when most of the time a bit of redirection is all that is needed. Children also need to learn to cope with things not going their way. A little empathy and understanding goes a very long way and teaches them to be empathetic and understanding to others.

There are times they have to do exactly as they are told, but the vast majority of the time that instruction can be given in a warm and positive way. If children only do as they are told under threat of harsh punishment, they are not really learning to manage their own behaviour or understand why it's important to behave in a particular way, they just learn that they must do what the adult tells them or they will be punished. It means that when out of the watchful eye of an adult, they might try out all the things they shouldn't do. They also learn to do what they are told to do regardless of whether it is the right thing to do or not. A compliant child is the easiest to coerce or manipulate because they don't know how to say no.

But most of the time, there can be some flexibility in how kids do things. There is nothing wrong with them negotiating an extra length of the swimming pool in return for getting out as soon as they get to the end. That is a vital skill to getting on with other people and learning to be assertive.

[fourbumsonarugbypost]

We give DD choices - you have a choice, you if you choose to do xx then we can do yy if you do not do xx then no yy and it stays like that.

Sometimes it works better than others I must admit.

But if you can be prepared to win the big battles then the smaller ones come easier I think, DD pushes the boundaries a lot, it's just a case of us trying to work out what is worth fighting for - if we ask her to put shoes on and she chooses different ones then as long as she has shoes on when we asked then we go with it

Disclaimer - she still screams and shouts and always at the worst time

[WakeUpFast]

Goodness my children drive me absolutely crazy sometimes but do I want them to be compliant to EVERYTHING I say? No way! That's how I was raised and eventually was left with no confidence, no idea how to speak to people and very easily bullied. Apologies but You make your children sound like dogs...compliant? Terrible word.

[corythatwas]

Maybe it is a pity that LoveFromUs didn't go on to have a third child. Apparently my mother thought she was brilliant at parenting until I was born...

[strawberrybubblegum]

Very eloquently put, LogicalThinking. That explains it really well.

loveforus - your wording when you said "there was a boy no older than the age of 6 hitting his father" worries me. It suggests that you would be less shocked if an older child was hitting his father!!

That to me pretty much sums up the difference between scaring children into compliance through fear of punishment - which will eventually stop working - and teaching them to manage their own behaviour as LogicalThinking describes - which will improve as they get older.

And the only way they can learn mutually respectful interaction is through you modelling it and giving them lots of chances to practice.

[EasilyDistracted77]

I came across this recently which gave me food for thought:

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/no-spanking-no-time-out-no-problems/475440/?platform=hootsuite

[SfaOkaySuperFurryAnimals]

Logical and Cody good advice...
Lovefromus- the more you post the more I cringe, you will be whipping out children should be seen and not heard next. What will you do when you're totally compliant children end up being used as doormats in the adult world? Forget the have the whole packet.

[eyebrowsonfleek]

If she's starting-Reception-in-September 4 year old then it's very common to be extra challenging. People around them and nurseries sometimes big up the whole going to Big School thing and stress that they have to Grow Up and Are Not Babies which is a lot of pressure.
The arrival of a sibling is also very tough on them. It's apparently as stressful as your spouse taking a second wife/husband. It's not unusual for them to regress to half their age. If that's the case then it's a question of waiting it out until she's started Big School and things settle down with the new baby.
In the mean time you just need to work out the best way not to lose control. Are there pools with family changing rooms so her StepDad can help her change? Maybe have a chat to him and see if he can offer some hints and tips?

[OhWhatAPalaver]

I tried counting down instead of up earlier and I'm pleased to say it worked! Thank you MN!
Also tried to do some positive discipline type stuff, not sure how effective it was but it helped me keep my cool more than anything, which is great :)

[OhWhatAPalaver]

You're right eyebrows, she does start school in September and we moved house last month as well so lots of new challenges for her to deal with. I can imagine she'll go through quite a few phases when dd2 arrives as well!

[NotCitrus]

Just saying good luck, and worth asking nursery what tricks they use that work - by the time dd became a threenager she had been installed with 123, where if you have to get to 3, it's really bad.

Also really big up all the fun things that she can do that a baby can't, like eat ice cream, watch TV, jump off walls... and when the baby comes try to get visitors to pay attention to her first, which doesn't mean "hello, what do you think of your new sister/brother? ” I had a similar age gap and they on remarkably well... though younger sister is the rebellious one.

[LoveFromUs]

loveforus - your wording when you said "there was a boy no older than the age of 6 hitting his father" worries me. It suggests that you would be less shocked if an older child was hitting his father!!

I would be shocked to see a child at any age hit his father, it is not the parents I feel sorry for it is child.

And it is always child of a Caucasian background I see misbehaving in public!

But as long as it is not my boys misbehaving or embarrassing me in public, I'm happy

[Millionprammiles]

OP: after a bad day, sometimes you just have to take a big breath and tell yourself tomorrow is another day...you keep trying and don't give up.

We had a v challenging day with dd recently, I felt like all I did all day was threaten to cancel treats/impose thinking time etc. At bedtime dd had an epic meltdown. I gave her a stern talking to about behaviour, hurting peoples feelings etc.
Then, just as I was turning the light out, she whimpered "mummy sometimes you hurt my feelings too". Gulp.

Most children don't want to behave badly or be told off or disappoint their parents. Unfortunately they can't always articulate that they feel hurt or angry or ashamed.
In amongst all the bribery, reward charts, boundaries, threats, punishment etc, sometimes I just forget to explain to dd why I'm asking her to do something.

I don't know a single child who behaves perfectly all the time OP. Hang in there.

[LogicalThinking]

And it is always child of a Caucasian background I see misbehaving in public!
Do you intentionally post utter rubbish or are you really that unaware?
I'm not going to explore your ignorant comment but you have a very skewed opinion of the world, particularly regarding child development and parenting.

Your children will learn from you to be intolerant and judgemental.

I would be shocked to see a child at any age hit his father, it is not the parents I feel sorry for it is child.
It is people like you who cause the most stress to any parent of a child with special needs who may behave in a way that you deem to be embarrassing, as if the embarrassment is the most important factor. You have not got a clue. You know nothing about that family or the circumstances, you just saw a glimpse and you made a nasty judgement. And it's not just special needs, there are all kinds of reasons why a child may behave in a difficult way whilst in public. A bit of understanding for the child and the parent is helpful. Ignorant judgement in not.

But as long as it is not my boys misbehaving or embarrassing me in public, I'm happy
As you are only concerned with yourself, it would probably be better if you kept your opinions to yourself as well.
Heaven help your children if ever they have any problems in their lives that might result in any display of emotion, especially if it is anger or upset. There'll be none of that stuff in public as it would be embarrassing for you! But of course you'll teach them to bottle everything up so their behaviour never slips - stiff upper lip and all that.

[Gowgirl]

My god, all children have their moments regardless of colour/class/any other judgy comment you want add and I can be very embarrassing dealing with a public meltdown. The nicest thing anyone can do is offer a sympathetic smile or a helping hand to the parent trying to deal with it.

Thank you so much to the older lady who stood with my pushchair while I took the toddler to the toilet today's!

[Gowgirl]

The baby was is the pushchair!

[LoveFromUs]

Children behave badly in public because their parents allow them to do it.

My boys are intolerant but judgemental at the ages of 4 & 6 they know right from wrong and what is expected of them.

People need to stop making excuses for badly behaved children, the more you make excuses the more they are going to continue with their unacceptable behaviour.

How long can you possibly bribe a child for?