Am crazy with rage.....4 year old DS

[sunshineandshowers]

...Has absolutely no respect for anyone.

He is always shouting, screaming, whining, crying, shouting. I ask him the same thing 50 times before he listens. I am so demoralised. He eats well, I play with him 1 to 1 every day.

DH just got him out the bath, I was putting the baby to bed who was v tired. He didn't want to get out, so shouts, and when I say shouts, its a throaty scream the loudest you have ever heard. Then he kicks and pushes the bathroom door and it smashes against a wall. If I am honest I am getting a bit scared of him. I would never ever ever have hit a door when I was a child. I just don't understand it.

He is also totally incapable of being quiet. If DD is having a nap, he will be purposefully noisy.

What am I doing wrong? We are consistent. We use the naughty step, we try to never threaten without carrying thro (sometimes mess up), and we also have a stones in the pot system, one stone in for doing something nice, out for bad. We use this for low level behaviour. WHen pot filled gets some lego.

Please help me.

[Lucyarchie]

Hi how long did this phase last we are just going through it :(

[Davsmum]

Sunshine&Showers.
You DS will not 'listen' overnight - It will take time. He is in the habit of ignoring you and trying to frustrate you because it gets a reaction - i.e. he sees he has some control over you.
I always used to let my DS & DD know what we were going to do - make sure you give them notice. If a child is absorbed in playing and you suddenly say 'Get dressed' they are likely react with frustration and resistance.
Once your DS has been told that he will need to get dressed in 10 minutes
( or whatever) Then remind him after 5 minutes. It doesn't matter if he pretends he has not heard you - He will have.

If he ignores you when its 'time' I am afraid you will have to take hold of him, remind him that you have told him what was expected and then dress him yourself if need be. He has to see that you meant what you said - i.e. he will get dressed when YOU decide, whether he does it or you do it.
If he gets used to the fact that what you expect ends up happening - over time he will likely cooperate - because there is no point in not doing so.

[captainmummy]

I've got 3 boys - and they do need more discipline and firmness that girls i think. It doesn't hurt them to see that you are annoyed, even MAD angry. I never needed to smack, but there is a 'look' that comes into my eye when I am nearing the end.......

[masterbaker]

Sounds so familiar. I thought they were supposed to be over tantrums at 4??? Mine never had tantrums like this at 2.
Anyway, my tips from experience: (1) naughty step alone isn't working if behaviour continues. Try an escalator (e.g. double time for continued shouting; naughty chair in bedroom for still continuing). Take away favourite toy (not comforter) for worst offence.

(2) If you choose the one very worst behaviour and hammer down on that with the above steps and constantly labelling it the worst naughtiness and not ever acceptable even if you are very angry, it will make a difference. My son's was headbutting (oh yes) and he has stopped when I did the above, after months of me stuggling in vain.

That's as far as I've got - still working on my son!

[sunshineandshowers]

Hi,

We had an incident this evening. We had to take DD to the Docs. He was moody about going. I let him watch the end of the programme he was watching, still screamed at me. Was fine in the Docs, but on way out...as I am typing this I can see where I have gone wrong!...he went mad, started punching me, hitting me. I had given DD a fun pack of smarties in the docs as Doc had to look in her eyes, and she was not happy. I did not give him any. He had had a biscuit after lunch and tea was approaching. So I could have avoided this by being better prepared with toys for her, or just deciding sod it, he can have some too.

BUT, what could I have done when he was hitting me. I felt I had nothing. I held his wrist, took him outside the doors and told him his beviour was unacceptable. I then distracted him. I said naughty step when we get home. When we got home he went mad when I said get on ns and again hit me, punched me. He eventually went voluntarily (after 2/3 mins) screaming. Is this normal? The only children I knew like this when I was growing up (admittedly I don't remember at 4, prob older), were all boys, but were v bad boys, who were widely known as being badly behaved.

Now, we have had hitting (only ever me or DH or DD) before, but for the last 6 weeks I have had none. Since I have been ignoring most of the irritating behaviour of the last 2 days (getting down from table during lunch) and only punishing aggression. Has he realised this is now the only way to get my attention?

For the majority of the day he is great, we just have flash points and today we had 3 (described above).

Davsmum How do I get him to listen? If I have asked him twice. I have started doing positive asking the last 2 days. Instead of "We can't go out till you are dressed" I say "When you are dressed we will go out".

Thanks for all your help.

[Davsmum]

You sound overwhelmed. You have a lively 4 year old and a baby - so don't be hard on yourself.
A 4 year old will not automatically 'respect' anyone.
Its hard for a young child to accept a new baby and it takes time - this can be just one reason your son plays up.
I know you say you are consistent - but you also say you ask him the same things about 50 times before he will listen. Thats too many times. If he does not listen the first time you need to 'make' him listen.
As Ragged says - make eye contact and try to be calm an dfirm with him.
You need to be prepared to put the baby down and go deal with him when he is playing up.

[sunshineandshowers]

Things are OK today as well. Sometimes a really bad day can make me look at what I am doing overall. I have done loads more ignoring. You can physically see his little confused face out the corner of your eye when I don't respond to some insane scream. I am still naughty stepping all aggressive behaviour (mainly throwing), but am trying to ignore the rest. Lots of praise. Carefully choosing my battles, I can't win em all.

I have read Steven Bidulp, but not for about a year. I wasn't sure about the testosterone thing or not. I will have to dig it out. I suppose in days gone by they'd be going out a hunting now for the first time. Maybe I'll take him to the zoo more.

[CrushedWithEyeliner]

Love "I gave birth to a child, not a library"

[NestaFiesta]

Op:

You are normal
You are not alone
Keep going!

When my DS was 4 I thought I was the worst mother in world. Then I read "Raising Boys" and the testosterone surge is correct. Now DS is 5 he is a teeny bit calmer and we see less of the crazy tiger and more of the cuddly cub. You are doing all the right things. Sometimes losing it shows them that they have crossed the line. It's good- they NEED boundaries.

[MockingbirdsNotForSale]

I have nothing constructive to say I don't have a 4 year old yet...but I lol'd at hooray when your dH came back with chocolate and I have decided that that would be a great coping strategy for the future! .

[ragged]

When you need him to do something get down eye-to-eye (very calmly) and get him to repeat back to you what you've asked him to do. Maybe repeat it a few times. Do not lose eye contact until he starts to do it. Works with a lot of them.

[sunshineandshowers]

grey! I have grey already. Disaster.

We are having a better day today, so far! I have done a bit more ignoring and when his shouting his for happy reasons (he is excited) I am joining in. He is 4 afterall, I gave birth to a child, not a library.

[MedusaIsHavingABadHairDay]

Sunshine...
teens are just the same but bigger!

Really They are as vulnerable as toddlers in big hairy smelly bodies.... and they need the same mix of affection but firm guidelines that 4 yr olds do. They are fab... ( I have 4 teens and some have been more hideous than others!)

Oh but they do turn your hair grey..

[sunshineandshowers]

Bloodstainedheart I feel for you. They push you and push you and push you.

Take comfort in something I read on one of the other 4yo threads tonight..."it's indicative of a secure attachment. he knows he can (badly behave) with you as you'll always love him and be there for him unconditionally."

DS has been asleep now for a bit so I feel recovered (choc and Matt Damon movie helped - altho don't really understand it - too much mnet)

Will really try to do more ignoring. Tis hard, but it does work. Why are all the things that work really hard???

[HoHoLaughingMonster]

I have a 4 year old DD who is a bit like this sometimes.

Today she has been awful - whiney, demanding, rude, shouty and a royal pain the butt.

But despite all this she is still 100 times nicer than she was when she was 2, so I just remind myself of this whenever I feel the rage

[NorksAreMessy]

OH YOU POOR THING!
hooray for your DH arriving on white horse with chocolate (hmmm, white chocolate horse....mmmmmm)

remember the MN mantra 'this too shall pass'

my DS is 14 and I remember that stage very well. in fact I look back on it almost fondly as at least he intracted with me in some way :)

testosterone, 4 year old, it goes with he territory

[fishandlilacs]

It's not just boys-my dd has just turned 4 and she is exactly as you describe. It's tiring and frustrating and yes sometimes you lose it-it's ok for them to see the human side of you too. They need to learn thier behaviour has an emotional context as well as just an attention one.

we totally ignore dd when she kicks off, i have just myself in the bedroom before now when she has been having a paddy. She can keep it up for 45 mins at a time and we just sit it out-trying to do anything with her before she starts to calm down just escalates it. I'll tell you what though, since we started to do that every little thing she has kicked off about has never been a problem since. Examples are coming to the table at dinner, tidy up time and like you getting out of the bath or hair washing.

[BloodStainedHeart]

So glad to have read this. I have just had the most horrendous evening with my 4 yr old ds. I ended up really shouting which until this past week has been something I have rarely done. Anyway, long story short it ended with us both in tears and ds saying he wished he could 'go to charity', I don't want to be your boy anymore' . I feel terrible but my God I have had enough of his snapping, bad attitude and genral gumpiness. I know he is growing up and I am currently 24 weeks pregnant which I know is probably freaking him out a bit too. Just so worn out by him lately. He doesn't seem to be able to do anything without arguing and having attitude, being downright rude sometimes, even to other family members. Just so sad I made him feel sad too.

[sunshineandshowers]

Thanks x

I do keep (trying) to bear in mind about staring School (10 days). He doesn't really know that many people going, but is v excited about it. BUT, it must be a bit worrying for him.

[deemented]

*coincides even.

[deemented]

They do have a huge testosterone surge aged 4-5. And it all coincodes with starting school, making new friends and starting to become an independant person in their own right.

I've lived through it once, and will go through it again in a few years.

Chin up x

[TheMonster]

I suspect we share a son, sunshineandshowers, so don't feel that your son is not normal in any way! As we speak, DH is upstairs battling putting DS to bed.

[sunshineandshowers]

Gumps yes he says things that we have NO idea where he gets them from. Today he said to me "I'm going to smash you up Mummy, and put you down the toilet".

He aslo says, "I love you Mummy" at least 5 times a day.

[Gumps]

No advice but just joining you in 4yo boy woes. My gorgeous ds has turned into a horror and it's so sad. He has started using the phrase you are not my mummy! I swear I haven't been letting him watch Eastenders.
He doesn't seem to be able to control it though and flits between being a horror and telling me he loves me.
I am hoping the routine of school will help as dc3 due any minute.

[sunshineandshowers]

He's back. Hooray.