To hate certain things people say.......

[blondissimo]

Following on from this thread, I realised that the way other people speak sometimes really grates me!

My dp and all his family say things to my ds (who thankfully is not old enough to understand) such as:

"Was you a good boy, was you?"

"I done it as well"

"Free or four"

Aargh!

And to top it off, on my side of the family, my dsis (in Scotland) says:

"Hunners" (hundreds)

"I'll no be doin' that" (no = not)

"Ye canny do that" (canny = can't)

I do worry about my ds!

Am I being unreasonable - yes, probably. But I don't care.

[Roomfor2]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that people be judged on what they say, but just that it is important for children to grow up knowing the difference between:

world-wide accepted English
a regional dialect
and something that is just plain wrong (like 'fink' and 'you am').

[FranSanDisco]

If your home language is a dialect how do you propose a child learns standard english before their home dialect?

[PuppyMonkey]

Oh I agree about you was, they was... there's a lot of that round here (Nottm) and it has nothing to do with the accent. Am always correcting my DP (he's passing it on to dds )

I particularly hate "arks" for ask - as said on EastEnders a lot.

[nicknameidlike]

just because i speak lowland scots does not make me stupid i love the way we speak and cannot stand working class people like myself with fake "pan loaf" scottish accents oh the banter!!!!

[FranSanDisco]

What is the current correct dialect? I speak with an Essex accent using standard english dialect where approriate and East End dialect in more informal situations. I guess this wouldn't be 'good enough'.

[Roomfor2]

FranSanDisco - I think that is part of what the thread is about really, the challenge of helping children to learn the difference. I have to correct DH all the time and will correct DCs if and when it becomes an issue, but it won't be easy!

PuppyMonkey - agree, 'arks' drives me mad! Also 'texes' as the plural of text. Very odd, as it presumes the singular is 'tex' .

[LadyPinkofPinkerton]

I see there has already been quite a full discussion on this.

Personally I don't like dialects as they are full of words that are not real. I am not however daft enough to believe my children will never speak using slang language.

I feel the important point that has been made here is that it is important to know when to use correct English grammar. There are planty of people who just can't use the correct words.

As a Geordie who now lives in Scotland I have seen lots of this. I grew up saying a lot of geordie words but my Mum always made me speak properly at home. This means that in a formal situation I know how to speak properly. That is something I will instill in my children too, and I don't think it makes me a snob.

[PuppyMonkey]

{grin] You said planty...

[FranSanDisco]

Dialects are not slang. They are languages in their own right.

[Paolosgirl]

Agree LadyPP. One of my friends was born and raised in this town, where parts of the dialect are not just grammatically incorrect, they are plain incoherent and make the speaker sound unintelligent, to be blunt. She was never allowed to speak that way at home, and subsequently has a Scottish accent but not a local dialect, which has stood her in good stead throughout her life. Cannae, youse, ben, fit etc are only used by some people up here - thousands of us Scots have never once uttered them!

[LittleMissMummy]

Blondissimo, you say you dont have a problem with regional dialect, that you want your ds to speak proper English, so why would you mention the things that your sister says; that is dialect. Im Scottish and I say things like 'canny' for cant or 'aye' for yes but I agree with mumcentreplus I think as you get older you can switch from using your regional dialect around your dh/dp/friends etc then use 'correct' or 'appropriate' dialect around your kids.

Although I dont really think you have the right to tell off you IL's for the way they speak.

[LittleMissMummy]

'thousands of us Scots have never once uttered them!'

wow, congratulations Paolosgirl!

[MIFLAW]

"world-wide accepted English" - that would be American English, then - certainly not British English of any form.

"If they wrote it in school, it would be wrong" - of course it would! That is because they teach a particular dialect in schools and this is from a different dialect.

"I was, you was, he was" perfectly correct in the majority of South Eastern dialects (as are certain words which apparently "don't exist" - how people can use them if they don't exist is an intellectual challenge that's beyond me, I'm afraid.) The fact that you shouldn't speak such dialects in a job interview is neither here nor there. It doesn't make them wrong, just inappropriate for that context. You might as well say miniskirts are "wrong" because you can't easily wear them for horse-riding ...

[Roomfor2]

MIFLAW - I was and he was are correct, you was is wrong...

"inappropriate for that context" - is exactly the point.

But how do you expect children to be able to switch between one and the other if they are only taught one version? That is the point of this thread, not to deny the existance or the place of dialect/regional accents, but to acknowledge the need for children to know the difference.

And no, I don't mean American English. Most people know the difference between US and UK English...

Plain, British English may have been a 'dialect' many years ago, but now it is accepted country-wide as plain English (the Queen's english, if you like, or BBC English, or whatever you want to call it) i.e. no accent, no dialect, no regional variation, just plain English.

[blondissimo]

LittleMissMummy - I agree that is dialect, however in my own personal opinion, I find it odd that my dsis used to speak perfectly coherently and lets call it 'school' English. She has now changed her dialect and I preferred the way she used to speak. But I guess that is a family issue that is a small part of a bigger issue. Perhaps I shouldn't have used it as an example.
I don't understand why people who think there is nothing wrong with their dialect would use 'correct' or 'appropriate' dialect around their kids. That is admitting there is something wrong with the way you speak - if there is not, then why not use it around the kids too??
I haven't "told off" my in laws - and never would do! But I will correct my ds if he starts copying their incorrect grammar and punctuation.

[blondissimo]

I also think it is a bit ridiculous to imply that the English you learn at school is not necessarily correct.

It's a bit like saying, "Who says 2+2=4? Well I say it equals 6."

I think that children should be encouraged to follow rules at school, and out of school.

[FranSanDisco]

Right there are a few misconceptions here. Firstly, everyone has an accent, even the Queen. The dialect taught in schools is 'standard english' dialect. You can speak this dialect with any accent. We all adjust according to social contexts and many of us will have a few dialects and accents we call upon to suit the occasion. This is called our 'repetoire' of language.

[Paolosgirl]

Really no need to congratulate me, MissMummy.

Blond is right. An accent is fine - it's impossible not to have one, as Fran says. However, when that accent then becomes a dialect which then becomes incoherent and grammatically incorrect, then that doesn't help you in the wider world. We live in a global community nowadays - surely we should be aiming to make ourselves understood by as many people as possible, not speaking in such a way that we can barely make ourselves understood by people who don't live in our area or town (and even those who do, but don't speak in that way!).

I'll be correcting my children if they ever say "bu'er", "youse", "hunners", "fit" "I done" etc etc - because there is simply no need to speak like that just because we live in this region.

[Roomfor2]

Agree with you, Paolosgirl. I work with a lot of people from different countries (including the US, so I know the huge gap between US and UK English, MIFLAW) and it is becoming more and more important to speak in a way that can be understood universally.

Bad enough that we rarely speak other languages here, we should definitely know how to speak our own properly!

Come to think of it, that is a good example of what I mean by 'correct english' - the english that is clearly taught to speakers of other languages, who DO know which subject correctly goes with which verb...

[MIFLAW]

If you think any form of English except US English is a world-wide accepted form these days then you are kidding yourself. The rest - including "correct" English - are, to the world at large, charmingly irritating local dialects.

"you was is wrong..." In "polite" or high-status English, yes. Not in Cockney, where it is correct.

As a country we are really up our own arse about dialects and often judge people's intelligence on the dialect they use. Most other countries manage fine with a range (including the USA).

It is especially mad to suggest that local dialect will interfere with a child's capacity to learn the standard dialect. It won't and it never has, unless the child is particularly unintelligent - with time and experience, the child learns that one is better suited to the home and not to use in public (because of people like some of those here who make all sorts of assumptions about them based on their choice of vocab) and one is better for use in school.

Use of a regional dialect in addition to standard English is a form of bilingualism and it is to be celebrated, not condemned.

[MIFLAW]

"they are plain incoherent and make the speaker sound unintelligent" - yes, to people like you, I'm sure they do.

[MIFLAW]

PS roomfor2 - Queen's English and BBC English are distinct dialects.

[Paolosgirl]

"unless the child is particularly unintelligent" - how charming. Exactly what are you trying to say here?

[MIFLAW]

I'm trying to say that the vast majority of children are more than capable of learning a dialect, or, indeed, a completely different language, alongside "standard" English, so worries that poor Tarquin or Tabitha won't be able to speak English "properly" just because he or she hears (or even uses) a bit of dialect at home are largely misplaced and have more to do with rather distasteful social concerns than actual fact.

Hope that clears it up.

[MIFLAW]

Do you know what? I changed my accent and dialect as a result of the education system in this country. I noticed my peers and teachers took people more seriously if they spoke "standard" english than if they spoke like my family, and I went out of my way to fit in.

I now realise that I couldn't give a monkey's what most of these people think and wish I hadn't thrown away my heritage and identity so easily just to pander to people who were not particularly intelligent, thoughtful or (in many cases) even likeable.

In case you wonder what my "agenda" is in this discussion, there you have it.