To think primary school teachers should have basic skills BEFORE they start the course?

[LissyGlitter]

My sister has just graduated from a four year course to become a primary school teacher. I went to her graduation, and asked her why some of her friends weren't there. She told me they hadn't yet graduated as they hadn't passed the basic skills tests! Apparently the students are allowed to retake these tests as many times as they like, with 10 or 12 retakes not being too unusual. All her friends will have graduated in time to start work as NQTs in september.

Now, I'm all for widening access to higher education and all that, but surely somebody who needs 12 retakes to be able to prove they can read, write and count shouldn't be a primary school teacher? Apparently it's becoming more and more needed to have an MA to work as a primary school teacher, due to the shortage of jobs, but surely it is far more important that the teacher has the basic skills they should be passing on to the children?

Why can't they have these tests as part of the application stage to the university, rather than letting the students spend three or four years studying and going out on placement before it is required that they pass the tests?

[PeachyLaPeche]

DEM- a lady I know with very severe dyslexia has just got her PGCE and will be a fabulous teacher I think.

it'sabout knowing you have the issues and how to deal with them I think.

[pointydog]

I don't think it matters if a PE or art teacher is a poor speller.

Lots of arty people have dyslexia(far more common at the art college than any other college near me).

I want the art teacher to teach art.

I don't give much of a monkeys about the PE teacher

[Olifin]

Sure, I do agree with you pointydog, its just that there's a difference between people with dyslexia and the many adults who are too lazy to learn some simple rules (e.g. the common homophones mentioned earlier). This is an observation of people generally, though, not just teachers!

[slug]

One of the best teachers I ever worked with was dyslexic. Her students were so used to her checking her spelling with a dictionary that it became the accepted practise within the class for them to do it as well, a sort of "Can you find my spelling mistakes before I can?" game. Fabulous stuff.

[Chica31]

I agree with Einsteinsmum, we are all of the same generation and were not taught spelling and grammar rules at school. However, during my training I made a huge effort with grammar to make sure I knew the rules. Making mistakes in class would be so embarrassing. I passed my standards tests first time. They were very easy, I do think that if you need a number of attempts to pass them maybe you should reconsider your career.

[Chica31]

I also agree with the OP do the tests before you start the course!

[BonsoirAnna]

I don't understand the concept of being a "fabulous teacher" of a skill that you do not master. Teaching is about imparting skills; you just cannot impart skills you do not have yourself.

[gingernutlover]

i graduated with my 4 year teaching degree 7 years a go when the basic skills tests had just been brought in - i passed first time and so did most other people. The people who had trouble were the less computer literate ones I seem to remember. The tests were pretty much GCSE level iirc

To get on a teaching training course I HAD to have GCSE in English and Maths at at least grade C, I assume this is the same now so how can people get through a four year degree having already passed GCSE English and Maths and STILL fail these tests numerous times??????

I think it is amazing that it happens.

I am not the worlds most fantastic speller, there are certain words I always get wrong and have to check - but I know this and so always have a dictionary in my classroom. I spell check any letters that go out. It's not hard is it?

[MrsKitty]

BonsiorAnna You can be incredibly intelligent and have tonnes of knowledge and understanding on a subject but be an utterly crap teacher - there is more than just knowledge required to be able to impart skills effectively.

That's not to say I don't still have real concerns about the number of people on teaching courses / in teaching that can't spell or use basic grammar effectively. The point is, those people that have been identified as being potential 'good' teachers at interview should be given more support in learning or improving these necessary skills either before, or during the course, rather than just retaking a test so many times that it eventually becomes a memory test rather than a skills test (i.e. "I got that wrong last time so this option must be the right answer")

[BonsoirAnna]

Sure, it is not enough to master a skill in order to be a good teacher. I never said otherwise! Teaching is of itself a skill. I just don't believe it is a standalone skill - you have to be able to teach something.

[echt]

MrsKitty - BonsoirAnna WAS talking about skills.

I never had a teacher whose spelling, grammar and maths were anything less than excellent. What has changed is that it's become an "anyone can do it" job, hence the perceived, and actual, need to retrain people before they can get on with the job. Entry level qualifications are abysmally low.

Another thing I don't accept is that people can be potentially "good" teachers while being unskilled and lacking in knowledge. They're not good. These skills and knowledge are the starting point, not a wish list. We don't treat would-be doctors in this way, so why is teaching different?

I am a teacher, and yes, I am tired of encountering poor subject knowledge, lack of basic skills, and just plain THICK teachers. And their apologists.

[katiestar]

some people are missing the point that all primary teachers ARE English teachers (and Maths and science and art...' teachers. At primary school the same teacher normally teaches you everything

[forehead]

My dd goes to an very good state school with some lovely teachers, but some of them can't spell to save their lives and it really annoys me. How the hell can these teachers teach literacy to my child , if they don't have the required knowledge? The irony is that non English teachers often speak and write better English than the English. My dd's year 3 teacher is a Nigerian lady and her grammar and diction are perfect.

[pointydog]

Just because a primary teacher teaches English, maths, science, art, history etc doesn't mean that we cannot expect a very good knowledge of spelling and grammar.

[katiestar]

Exactly. I was responding to the posts that said 'if they are not an English teacher it doesn't matter much' I was trying to point out that at primary level they are ALL English teachers.

[spongebrainmaternitypants]

YANBU, primary school teachers should all be able to spell and understand the basics of grammar - if they can't they should accept this and check their spelling and not just 'wing it' and hope for the best .

I am an ex-primary school teacher and it made me so angry when I used to see the standards of some of my colleagues written work - including their displays and letters home - and that they would just laugh this off when corrected as if it wasn't important.

I have a couple of my friends' children as FB friends who are training to be teachers and their spelling is dire.

Crazy world!

[katiestar]

My Ds2 s teacher (also the headteacher) set some homework with the instructions
' circle numbers WHAT are multiples....'.One of several howlers
The problem is most children knew that was wrong and it really unmdermones the teacher's credibility in the children's eyes.

[tothesea]

Agree with OP, I work in admin at a large University and have dealings with PGDE and BEd students before they start.
I am constantly thinking 'good grief these people are going to be teaching my child'
Their spelling, grammar and inability to follow simple instructions would take your breath away...

[Rafi]

I think there are plenty of jobs where spelling & grammar don't matter too much, but it IS different for people who work in schools, or it should be. The kids are looking to them & they have a responsiblity to get it right. My DD picks up on staff howlers at school too. How do I then make it clear to her that correct spelling, punctuation & grammar are important without undermining the school staff who make mistakes?
When I was 7ish I asked my teacher how to spell nasturtium, her version (nasturtion) looked wrong to me so I checked in a dictionary that night & it was. Probably IBVVVU but I never took her word for anything again.

[spongebrainmaternitypants]

Rafi, this is the problem - it does mean that children are now getting the message that spelling and grammar just don't matter .

This is why the standards of writing amongst those now going to university are so poor - it's a vicious circle and is just getting worse as those teachers move into management positions.

[mrz]

I'm a teacher and sometimes despair at the lack of basic skills and common sense of some of my colleagues. No wonder we aren't taken seriously as a profession and considered by some as glorified babysitters if students are accepted for the courses without basic literacy and numeracy skills.

[RafiToreTheDMUpForCatLitter]

It's not just the teachers who are affected either...

It's everywhere. Birthday cards, packaging, T-shirts, they all can & do have mistakes on. I'm a book editor, maybe I'm making too much fuss because correcting this kind of thing is my job, but if kids aren't learning basic skills in school then the schools are failing them & it's just going to get worse

Disclaimer: I'm NOT talking about people with dyslexia etc. I liked the post about the dyslexic teacher with the dictionaries & the "find my mistakes" game.

[spongebrainmaternitypants]

Yep, my TA brought a card into me a couple of years ago that she had bought from Clintons - it said, "Sorry Your Leaving" on the front!

MrsZ, I get this thrown in my face a lot - how can we be a 'profession' if our own standards of education are so poor. And when parents read some of the letters being sent home from school they must be horrified - my DS is only 14 months so haven't had this to contend with yet, but I know I will find it hard to stay mute on the subject when the time comes.

[RafiToreTheDMUpForCatLitter]

There was a notice up in reception for ages about "a parents responsibility".

I tried to ignore it. I did. But eventually I caved in & added an apostrophe. So far I've resisted the temptation to correct & return letters but I'd like to...

Maybe I should get DD to do it.

[spongebrainmaternitypants]

Rafi, that's soooo !