To be fed up to the back teeth of hearing that new health rules are crap and new mums know nothing.

[Kaedsmum]

Because everything was fine in their day, they didn't know dangers, no babies ever died or got ill, and we are all just fussy.

Yet guidelines today are realistic and do decrease the risk of cot death. Don't get me wrong, I'm weaning my baby early because he's so hungry and ready for it, and sometimes I lie him on his side if he's very colicy. I am open to older people's opinions.

But I'm sick of being patronised and disregarded for doing things A) my way, or B) according to guidelines.

Oh and the worst is when you change to their way and they go 'well I didn't want to say anything before because you thought you knew best'.

Anyone else want to join my rant?

[3andnomore]

Pruners...I think the theory was, that the material of the cotmatresses was different to the originally used futonmatresses...i.e. the gasses forming when warming with bodyheat, or some such like...the book I read about it,didn't really go into it, it was a mere side-story within it, it was about Sally Clark....but, I just thought about it when Japan was mentioned...

[3andnomore]

Tori, as already has been said by fabsmum, it is hard to know what is instinct and what is conditioned....you have to remember that advertising didn't really exist many hundreds of years ago,certainly not in the kind of way it does now, what wiht media being part of everyday life, therefore, advertisement being part of daily life, etc....

[TinkerBellesMum]

fabsmum, that's an interesting look at it and something I hadn't thought about. When you consider how many parents FF, smoke or drink...

[expatinscotland]

i fell asleep with DD2 at the breast plenty of times.

i can't imagine not feeding lying down.

my PND would have been off the charts had i been sleep-deprived as well.

[fabsmum]

"The dangers are there, especially if the baby is in the middle, which will happen if the mother is alternating breasts when feeding and falls asleep during feeding"

Lots of people feed from both sides without putting baby into the middle - I did.

I personally wouldn't argue that there are no risks to co-sleeping. Adult beds are not designed for babies, and when you take into account the fact that

60% of new parents (many of who will be smokers and drinkers) bed share in some capacity during the first few months of their baby's life

Of those babies of around 8 weeks (the peak age for SIDS) who are bedsharing the majority are likely to be bottlefed

babies who are already poorly are more likely to be bed-sharing

and that parents who are bed sharing have generally not made the effort to make their bed a safer environment for their baby because they have been told categorically NOT to bed share by hp, and so are doing it in an unplanned and disorganised fashion.

..... well - no wonder babies sometimes come to grief.

My personal take is that if you follow all the rules the risks of co-sleeping are not great.

I agree with you Tori that we should listen to our instincts. However, sometime it's hard to tell what's 'instinct' and what's socially conditioned behaviour. Before the Government changed the weaning recommendations it was very common for women to begin using solids well before 10 weeks, and when they did introduce solids it was for the same reasons that they do now: because they felt instinctively that their baby 'needed' them. Since the guidelines have been changed to 6 months weaning before 12 weeks is much more uncommon. I personally don't know a single person whose introduced solids before this time. So what's changed? Is it that women with babies under 10 weeks are ignoring their instincts that their babies 'need' solids? Or that they put a different interpretation on their baby's behaviour if they know that there is a strong consensus that weaning before 12 weeks can be positively harmful for some babies?

[TinkerBellesMum]

Ah see, read the link that Monkies posted and it says that men are more likely to roll onto baby than mum. It's not the only study to say that either. Cuddle curl protects the baby from dad because he will roll onto mum before baby. I wonder how many babies who have been rolled on were in the cuddle curl position at the time. Certainly with older babies it gets harder to stay in that position.

I didn't roll over when I changed sides in the night, I fed on one side so that I didn't have to disturb her. I also had rules about how TBD slept when he was with us.

[tori32]

The thing is about children 'forgetting' to breath, is that the cycle is stimulated by a build up of carbon dioxide in the body, not a lack of O2 so sometimes there is a delay in breathing but it isn't 'forgetting to breath' just that CO2 levels are not enough to stimulate it. As cells are still 'breathing' even when we aren't the CO2 levels usually will build up enough in a short time to stimulate it without any intervention.

[tori32]

I know of a parent who lives near me who crushed his baby to death through co-sleeping. The dangers are there, especially if the baby is in the middle, which will happen if the mother is alternating breasts when feeding and falls asleep during feeding.

[tori32]

Its interesting, that for thousands of years the population has thrived and increased over time quite nicely. This has been mostly without written guidelines up until about 100-200 years ago. Then it was the experience of the older females in the family that helped the younger females to bring up their children. Now we are so obsessed by guidelines that we daren't touch our babies without referring to them, especially on here. Again, instinct plays a massive part. A mother knows her baby the best generally speaking with exceptions say if a baby is adopted at birth. How a mother chooses to parent her child is her business, be it by the 'rules' or not.
I have broken all the rules
My 4mth old has been in her own room since 3mths without a monitor.
Was weaned at 13wks
Walks holding just my hands.
Has lumpy food.

The only rule I have kept is to continue breast feeding.
My choice. I have 2 healthy and happy children (with the exception of some sibling rivalry which is diminishing since weaning started.) What is right for 1 baby is not necessarily right for another. I welcome all advice because it gives you food for thought although if it doesn't sit well with my beliefs I file it so to speak. My beliefs have changed between children as well. With dd1 I didn't see myself bf for longer thaqn 6mths, with dd2 I haven't got aqny fixed idea of when I will stop.

[Pruners]

Message withdrawn

[Elkat]

I also read research from New Zealand, whereby they covered the mattresses with some type of fabric and that seemed to reduce sids greatly. Question is though, how do you find out what goes into cot and adult bed mattresses?

[3andnomore]

Pruners, incidently just read a book in which there is a interesting point made....because, in Japan they only started to have SIDS once they started using the western method of cots with mattresses of man made fiber and that lead to the believe that there is obviously somehting wrong with those mattresses and sure enough, apparently they give off some gasses released, which in the natural futons would not have been the case...

[Elkat]

I also rolled on top of my DD1 when I slept with her. And yes, I did follow the guidelines exactly. She was 7 months when I rolled onto her... yet I was still bfeeding her (She was exclusively bfed from birth until weaning, and bfed until she was 18 months in total, and was still bfeeding at night at the time), I didn't smoke, hadn't been drinking... she slept on top of the covers... I had done all my research to make it as safe as possible, yet still I rolled on top of her. That's why I get edgy when people say things like it is as safe as, or sometimes I've even heard it said that it is safer... I am not against the decision to co-sleep, I even have a super kingsize bed that can fit all of us in, should the girls ever want to join us at night... I just think we need to be honest about the 'facts'. I was told that as I bfed, I wouldn't roll onto my DD ... but that wasn't true for me. I'm lucky, my daughter screamed, I woke and there was no harm done, but that is not true for everyone, as a pp has testified. That's why I think it is important to be honest about the "facts" as we know it... co-sleeping does carry risks - I would hate to have told someone that it is perfectly safe, for them to go out and do it, and end up with a tragedy... if people do it, I think it should be on the basis of an informed choice, with people fully aware of all the dangers etc. We shouldn't sugar coat them, because imho that is potentially very dangerous.

[TinkerBellesMum]

I guess the difference is BFing mothers would automatically adopt the "cuddle curl" position as that's the easiest to feed in, whereas FFing mothers wouldn't have a natural position to lie in? "Cuddle curl" protects baby from both sets of parents rolling over onto baby. Also with baby feeding through the night it keeps Mum aware of babies presence.

[tootyflooty]

I am 43 and still get questioned as to whether the children are wrapped up warm enough,and is that really what they are having for lunch,and all that modern health rubbish, not to mention when they get ill.I've come to the conclusion that we will never be seen as competent adults by our parents , inlaws etc.They mean well, but sometimes you just have to bite your tongue, and vow never to be like that when your own kids produce.Mine are 17 ,10,10, and I've not managed to damage any of them in spite of not feeding them properly or failing to hang the clothes the correct way on the washing line !!!!

[fabsmum]

I'm sorry for your cousin mamadiva. What a terrible thing to happen to a mother.

On the children who co-sleep not going into their own rooms - I have not had this problem with any of my three, who all co-slept to some extent. I personally think how your children sleep is down to the individual child, plus the parent's approach to introducing the child to sleeping independently.

[GreenMonkies]

Durham University is researching sleeping patterns ets at the moment.

Monkies

(and yes VS, I thought the same thing about the OP!!)

[TinkerBellesMum]

My daughter does sleep in her own bed - has all night since she was four months - and she will sleep in her room, which she always does at other people's houses - I haven't got space for her to be in her own room at the moment, but I'm trying to move so she can.

I wonder whether your friend was co-sleeping safely, without trying to put any blame on her as I'm sure she does enough herself and it was a tragic accident with no blame to apportion. Was she breastfeeding, does she smoke, is she on any medication, was she overly tired that night, what about the father (assuming they were together and in the same bed) did he do any of those things, where/how did baby sleep. There is more to co-sleeping than just putting a baby in bed with you and most people who do it think about these things and wouldn't take the risk if they knew on a particular night it wouldn't be safe.

[mamadiva]

Okay have just read through this thread and leave a few comments..

1)IMO co-sleeping is dangerous and a PITA. BUT I have my reasons for saying both before I get shotdown in flames!!! My cousin co-slept with her first DS and when he was 6 weeks old she accidentally suffocated him in her sleep and he died. . She tried to commit suicide 3 times afterwards from guilt so co-sleeping cost her sons life and nearly her own life aswell not really worth it, and I think it's a PITA as I have a friend whos DD co slept from birth as she was BF, she is now almost 4 and will not sleep in her own room or bed.

2)I started weaning my DS at 20 weeks under the guidance of my HV, he was very hungry and Formula just wasn't enough for him so I didnt see the problem and he is fine!

3)Back to the original topic yes it is a PITA when older people tend to think that we do it all wrong. Apparently I should never have used a pram because they encourage children to be lazy and should have used a sling until he was old enough to walk and then made him walk everywhere. According to MIL even though it is a 2 mile walk into our local town.

[TinkerBellesMum]

fabsmum, my mum was watching TV with my SIL and that advert about children passive smoking came on. Mum said "What does that tell you?" SIL "That I'm smoking for two now "

She does annoy me that she's so blase about smoking, especially as she has lost a baby to cot death. She gets very angry if any suggests a link between SIDS and smoking

MrsTittleMouse, I can understand why you wouldn't want to. I also agree with fabsmum.

I spoke with the paediatrician about co-sleeping and front sleeping and he was fine about it. He said to go with what suited us and the other risk factors (to front sleeping) were more important. Having a baby in with you they don't sleep as deeply as they would in a cot which is when they can forget to breathe. It's also good for breastfeeding as no one has to ever really wake up, baby stirs enough to latch them self, Mum stirs enough to move into position. I never understood why people kept commenting on my lack of sleep because we actually slept really well.

As my SIL has had a cot death her other children have all been on the CONI programme so all worn monitors. It's amazing how often they do forget to breathe, usually they remember but the amount of times we've had to prod one of the kids to make them remember to breathe, it's quite frightening really.

[fabsmum]

MrsTittleMouse - I think it's right that when it comes to co-sleeping every family should be advised according to their individual circumstances. In your case you have to do what seem best and safest for your baby, and what you find easiest to cope with.

I just get cross that all families are given the same advice - 'don't co-sleep', when it has positive benefits for many, and - this is especially important - when the majority of people already do it in some form anyway as a family survival mechanism in the first few months.

[MrsTittleMouse]

Wow, this really kicked off!
The problem that we had is that there is probably a genetic element to cot death. The fact that DD had already stopped breathing, with no medical reason found, meant that we were going to follow the rules to the letter, as it raised a red flag for us that she could be one of those babies who were genetically more at risk.

[fabsmum]

"The fact still remains that we do not really know what causes SIDS"

No - but we do know that there are two particular risk factors which are overwhelmingly more important than the others, and they are smoking (particularly maternal smoking in pregnancy) and prone sleeping. I've also heard it said that SIDS is very much a disease of poverty with much higher rates among poor families than among middle class families (did you know that the children of teenage mothers have rates of SIDS 5 times above the average? How sad is that?)

According to the FSID smoking is linked to 90% of cot deaths, which is a shocking statistic, particularly when you think that one in five women continues to smoke throughout pregnancy. Actually I suspect it's probably more than one in five as many women probably don't admit to doing it (I know my SIL smoked all the way through her 3rd pregnancy - she's blocked out the memory of this. I heard her pontificating to someone else about how she gave up smoking straight away in all her pregnancies, and I really wanted to say 'err, no you didn't. I saw you!').

Anyway - I think the point I'm making is that not all babies are equally at risk, and that co-sleeping or otherwise there are simple things we can do that hugely cut the chances of our baby becoming another cot death statistic.

[Pruners]

Message withdrawn

[Elkat]

Oh and that is even before we even look at how SIDS is classified in the different countries. That would also have to be considered too. Are some countries more likely to classify a SIDS death than others, for example? This would (unfairly) affect statistics too.