Today's ruling re Down's Syndrome

[Shirazboobaloo]

Sorry to hijack AIBU for this but can someone explain this ruling to me please?

What I can't understand (from press reports) is how this has "come to this".

Who is Heidi Crowther and who are those supporting her?

I am genuinely confused but don't know where to ask

[ISpyCobraKai]

As early as possible, as late as necessary, for any woman, for any reason.

[DeepaBeesKit]

Bear in mind within the 229 abortions under ground E in 2020 many will be foetuses where it is clear they will not survive post partum.

A family member was in this position.a scan identified serious abnormalities (not DS) incompatible with life. She had to choose between carrying to term and her baby dying almost immediately post partum, or terminating. Medical professionals recommended termination as it would be lesson the health impact on her own body, given the baby could not possibly survive.

[BiteyCatII]

Treaclepie19. I’m so sorry. I’d not judge any woman for making the decision to end their pregnancy. Those who think it’s a decision taken lightly are deluded. It’s an unimaginably heart wrenching thing to have to go through 💐

[Treaclepie19]

Thank you BiteyCatII

[myheartskippedabeat]

It's an individual decision to terminate a pregnancy whether the baby has downs or doesn't have downs

Everyone needs to calm down over This

People make choices for all sorts of reasons and should never be judged

[somethingwittynotshitty]

@Covidworries

Its not manipulation. In most cases DS is screened initially at 12 week scan and people are offered extesive screening if fetus classed as probably DS. All this is done in almost all cases well before the general abortion cut off of 24 weeks.

The law already protects life limiting health problems that can be terminated after 24 weeks if needed.

What they are asking is that abortion after 24 weeks for DS (unless other life limiting health problems) is stopped in line with non DS pregnancies. Drawfism, missing limbs arent reasons that allow abortion after 24 weeks so why DS?

As your last sentence simply isn't true, I'm going to assume that everything you write is unreliable and I would encourage others to ignore you too

[owlbethere]

@Covidworries

Im pro choice too BUT a pregnancy can not be terminated after 24 weeks in most cases. After 24 weeks if the fetus isnt viable is different BUT DS shouldnt be a reason to terminate. Currently a DS baby can be terminated up to term and that isnt right as DS doesnt mean the child isnt viable or would be unable to servive outside of the womb. Plus DS isnt the only thing a child can be born with that causes learning difficulties but most learning disabilities cant be checked in the womb so the ruling has been a kick in the face for the DS community by stating their life isnt as important as a non DS life regardless of any oyher disabilities or not.

It CAN mean that it is incompatible with life or would die very soon after birth. DS has a wide array of severity. I had a friend who’s baby with DS lived just 5 mins. I have another friend who’s child with Patau syndrome (which all the literature says is always fatal) is 8 and thriving. Chromosomal conditions are wildly unpredictable, and if a person feels they can’t cope that is their right.

It’s also true that only a tiny number of terminations take place after 24 weeks.

[SnackSizeRaisin]

Do people really think that is ok purely because there is a disability involved? Something as simple as say, a club foot?

Club foot can require multiple painful surgeries and even bilateral amputation. Would you choose that for your child? Perhaps you would but another parent may not. It is a brave decision to spare a child that suffering as well. It's perhaps harder in some ways than letting things run their course

[RunningFromInsanity]

Heidi is naive that all DS babies will be as high functioning as her.
Many won’t, as a PP has described above.


As soon as possible, as late as necessity.

(PS, you can’t be pro choice if you have a ‘but’ after)

[FudgeFlake]

@Kittii

What is the justification for treating DS differently from other disabilities? If you can't terminate after 24 weeks for other disabilities why can you do so for DS? It suggests that DS is somehow "worse" than other disabilities. My friend has a daughter with DS and honestly she has the best quality of life. She is constantly happy and thinks the world revolves around her. As her Mum said, who wouldn't want to feel like that every day of their lives?

And what is the plan for your friend's daughter with DS when your friend passes away or becomes unable to help her continue to have 'the best quality of life' and believe that 'the world revolves around her'?

Anna Furedi on Jeremy Vine earlier put the case for all abortion to be on an equal time limit no matter what the trigger very well.

[ShushShushShush]

There are so, so many people on this thread with opinions about something they know absolutely nothing about, and they should be grateful they know nothing about the experience of TFMR and the horrific distressing, traumatic experience that it is.

I am so sorry to all of the other TFMR mums on this thread and others like it, where the hugely painful loss of our beautiful, precious babies, has been reduced to us being "killers" and "murderers". Where we are judged by those who have no idea at all if the hell we have been through.

[pointythings]

No woman should be forced to have a child against her will - whether with or without disabilities. If a woman feels she cannot cope with raising a child with Downs or any other disability, she should not be forced to do so. The law needs to stay as it is, but I would support levelling up rather than restricting down, especially since the evidence clearly shows that late term abortions are extremely rare and are for serious medical issues. Heidi and her family are hardline Christians and faith should not intersect with the law.

Going on about how there is screening is all very well, but the screening and diagnostics system is not perfect. Some women will fall outside the current 24 week timeline before they find out their baby has a serious medical issue. Those women should also have the choice to terminate or not. A friend of mine was diagnosed at 26 weeks - her baby was very much wanted, but had a condition incompatible with life. Had this ruling gone the other way, cases like hers would have been next. This case was always about chipping away at abortion rights.

Lastly, stop idealising people with Downs syndrome. While some live happy, fulfilled and productive lives, many do not. And the prevalence of dementia in people with Downs is horribly high - far, far higher than in the general population. That is aside from all the other possible health issues that come with the condition.

The law is not perfect, but the alternatives are all far worse. I sincerely hope Heidi loses her appeal too.

[GingerScallop]

@ComtesseDeSpair

It is absolutely shocking that a viable baby can be aborted at all!

But look at orphanages in countries where abortion is restricted - full of unwanted disabled children. Life for many unwanted disabled children isn’t the type Heidi has, and many would argue it would have been merciful for them to have not been born in the first place.

but this is not true for all countries. my country hardly had orphanages until the 1990s when being an orphan was monetised by development aid.

[FuckingFlumps]

@ShushShushShush

There are so, so many people on this thread with opinions about something they know absolutely nothing about, and they should be grateful they know nothing about the experience of TFMR and the horrific distressing, traumatic experience that it is.

I am so sorry to all of the other TFMR mums on this thread and others like it, where the hugely painful loss of our beautiful, precious babies, has been reduced to us being "killers" and "murderers". Where we are judged by those who have no idea at all if the hell we have been through.

Agreed.

I'm sos sorry people don't seem to have even an ounce of compassion when discussing such an emotive topic. It's somewhat ironic that they claim it be so compassionate towards the unknown feutus but show absolutely no regard for the poor women having to make those difficult choices.

I'm so sorry for everyone who has endured such heartbreak and then had that decision steam rolled over by the ignorate idiots claiming to be so 'pro choice'.

[Slobbering]

As early as possible, for any reason! This isn't about DS, this is about limiting women's body autonomy. Pro choice is just that, personal choice.

[olivehater]

That is a terrible example Covid worries. For goodness sake. DS is life limiting whether they heart condition or not.

[womaninatightspot]

Within that 229 the statistics do say that 55% are due to congenital defects. 27% due to chromosonal defects. DS can cause congenital defects so there may well be some crossover but the numbers are really low.

It must be an awful decision to make and I honestly believe it should be between a woman and her doctors.

[Comedycook]

I think the laws on abortion in this country are about right....I will say though that I was moved watching the scenes on the news of people with down syndrome outside of the court.

[GingerScallop]

Those saying Heidi has been manipulated can you please offer your basis? How did you come to this conclusion? or is it an assumption because she has DS? I applaud her (whether I agree or not) because she's sparked a much needed debate about the value of life of persons with disabilities and it's a debate we need to have especially given our talks and commitments to disability rights

[somethingwittynotshitty]

Thank you. I'm going to leave this thread now - it's been too upsetting for me.

[Abouttimemum]

I had a TMFR, we had a number of really in depth scans from incredible (but very matter of fact) NHS consultants which gave us a lot of reliable information and helped us reach a decision which had been recommended to us but which ultimately was ours to make.

It was and still remains the worst thing I have ever been through. I can’t even describe what it feels like to be told repeatedly all of the terrible things your child will endure even if by some miracle is makes it full term, only for them to die at birth or perhaps make it through a few months, and to continue to have hope only for it to be taken away at every turn, and then to stop your baby’s heart and then live with that for the rest of your days.

I’ll be forever grateful for the doctors and nurses who helped us through that.

It’s our bodies and our decision and nobody knows the details of each individual case.

[SweetBabyCheeses99]

@abcdeg “ I agree with the ruling but you raise a fair point about DS not being a life limiting illness”

DS is most definitely a life limiting condition. Have you ever seen a pensioner with DS?! Medical science in the developed world has only just succeeded with getting the first generation of people with DS into middle age. But not without added suffering. Almost all show symptoms of Alzheimer’s by age 40 and it comes with additional depression and anxiety. It’s not just childhood quality of life that should count.

[Covidworries]

@pointythings

Yes i think you are correct leveling up is the answer here.
Just to add i really feel for all those who have gad to go through late stage abortions and do believe that this should always be available in these cases.
Appologies, if i have upset anyone with any comments, its easy sometimes on threads to forget the real people going through such difficult times.

[somethingwittynotshitty]

@somethingwittynotshitty

Thank you. I'm going to leave this thread now - it's been too upsetting for me.

That was thank you to @ShushShushShush - not the thoughtless ones