To think there are more people becoming poorer in the UK

[fullyfurnished]

I don't know if it's because I am and live in a working class area but I can see my area becoming more run down, loads more people on the streets, more crime, loads of people unemployed. I've been living in this area for over ten years and things are just going downhill. I know covid has resulted in alot of job losses but the slow decline has been gone on for awhile now.

Anyone else noticed this in their area?

[FortunesFave]

I saw it when I came home to the NW last year for a visit. I was shocked really. The town I'm from is or was a nice, historical market town and it had really gone downhill. Looked sad and shabby. The people seemed grumpier too. :(

[XDownwiththissortofthingX]

I disagree because you could increase the taxes of the very wealthiest without affecting the majority of the electorate

This is notionally true, but unfortunately this -

That wouldn’t raise enough. And it would hit all the Tory cronies

We need to get to grips with companies and corporations too.

But you can bet that the likes of France and Germany will recover better and avoid making their poorest citizens suffer on the way. That happened after 2008 when despite even more problems (Eurozone) those countries treated less well off citizens so much better than the UK.

You betcha. All the places that don't have the astronomical levels of both national and personal debt that the UK and it's citizens do.

[Alsohuman]

@savvy7

I don't think you can say it wouldn't raise enough! But I agree it would hit all the Tory cronies, which is why I think it isn't about individuals, it's about the political will to make the change.

I just did! It wouldn’t.

[savvy7]

OK you can say it but I disagree with you.

[EvilPea]

I singly put it down to house prices lack of council houses and changes in planning.
People can no longer afford to live near family and support for childcare, renting means you have no stability in an area it’s hard to feel part of the community when your priced out and living with 2 months notice. Knowing your kids might end up in different schools etc as a result. You no longer belong to a community, your on the outside.

Planning laws change mean small business premises are being redeveloped into houses. Land has gone from being cheap to absolutely ludicrous so only big business remains. One Big business keeps wages stagnant in an area and if they go the whole area is fucked. Leaving large premises empty and any worker wanting to start up on their own unable to as the small premises have all gone.

[Cornettoninja]

I’m not sure the Tories will want to go full blown austerity. They’re pretty heavily invested in proving Brexit was a good move along with the success of ‘their’ vaccination programme. Can they really sell it if the UK trails behind other European countries in their economic recovery (presuming things stay on course)?

Wish I wasn’t personally living it but it’s going to be an interesting decade politically. I’m hoping some credible players step up soon though.

[Overdueanamechange]

My grandmother will tell me stories about everyone have net curtains so "folks couldn't see what you didn't have". If you wanted benefits then an official would visit and tell you what furniture you needed to sell before you could claim anything. They mended clothes, brought jumpers from jumble sales to unravel and re knit, didn't run a car and thought they were well off if they had a black and white TV. You were posh if you ate out at all.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

I think a lot of this (not all) is due to the failure to deal with housing costs

House prices in the UK risen by 36% on average since 2008

Wages risen 0% in the same time.

What is driving this is the scourge of speculative landlordism. People buying up what used to be cheap or affordable housing, i.e. buy to rent, or sticking it on AirBnB, all properties which could have been someone's home.

Edinburgh has been utterly destroyed by AirBnB plague, and there are areas in the Highlands and Islands being completely depopulated of locals because the only people who can afford housing there are transplants and wealthy people buying up second homes.

Why AirBnB does not require a hoteliers licence is beyond me. It's nothing remotely close to what the original intent was.

I totally agree with you on the AirBnB thing.

But that has also helped destroy the old fashioned, it's a long term investment style buy to let landlords, who are selling in their droves according to trade press.

There will have to be a backlash soon, just as there has been against Uber. They are much the same thing, in my mind, just in different industries!

[XDownwiththissortofthingX]

Can they really sell it if the UK trails behind other European countries in their economic recovery (presuming things stay on course)?

Well we've just had a Tory-led decade of being the only country in Europe with near consistent economic growth, and absolutely no increase in wages, yet the same Tory party has been re-elected with a landslide majority. So being unequivocally shit at economy stuff doesn't appear to harm them.

[Viviennemary]

No. But I've noticed a lot of richer people on MN. Handwringing because they have only £150k a year to live on.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Oh! Don't! The "AIBU to think I am not wealthy?" posts make me shudder. Quite grim!

[savvy7]

Just a thought though .... what do you expect wealthier people to do?

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Here? Or in real life?

Here - stop posting disingenuously. It does nobody any good. The usual backlash is often quite nasty

In real life - depends on how wealthy. Enough to be generous to local charotoes? Bill Gates? Or just high earners? But mostly just enjoy it, acknowledge you have it, don't pretend to yourself, or anyone else, and don't waste it!

[LakieLady]

@thebillyotea

The lack of funding to schools, police, hospitals has been shocking. Labour is just as to blame as the tories, and now we have the Covid bill looming, the next years/ decades will be awfully grim.

Individual people locally have saved a fortune with the lockdowns, as you would when you have no life and nothing to spend on. Houses are being refurbished, extended all over the place, you can't find a builder or painter or landscaper that is not booked until next year!

I have also noticed the amount of luxury chelsea tractors that are taking over. Not sure why, but people seem to have gone crazy with their car purchase.

Labour haven't been in power for over 10 years.

It isn't Labour that's cut the funding to local authorities to the point where they're struggling to meet their statutory duties.

[bookworm1632]

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

I disagree because you could increase the taxes of the very wealthiest without affecting the majority of the electorate

This is notionally true, but unfortunately this -

That wouldn’t raise enough. And it would hit all the Tory cronies

We need to get to grips with companies and corporations too.

But you can bet that the likes of France and Germany will recover better and avoid making their poorest citizens suffer on the way. That happened after 2008 when despite even more problems (Eurozone) those countries treated less well off citizens so much better than the UK.

You betcha. All the places that don't have the astronomical levels of both national and personal debt that the UK and it's citizens do.

We need to get to grips with companies and corporations too.

This is a cry I often hear, but dig underneath the emotion and it has as much substance as the Brexit bonus did.

You can split businesses into two kinds:
1) There's multinationals that can pick and choose where they are taxed - it's not unilaterally possible for one nation to do much about this - people cry "Close the loopholes" - as though it was a simple matter of deleting a paragraph with the heading "Loophole" somewhere. Loopholes exist because of the way the world works and if they could have been "closed", they would have been YEARS AGO!

2) Smaller, British businesses - most of these are not dodging tax - if anything many are struggling to survive due to the amount of tax they do pay!

So ramping up Corp Tax for instance will tend to put local businesses out of business, while multinations will merely shift their profits and probably quite a few staff, elsewhere - it's a lose/lose scenario.

Secondly, even if this wasn't the case, thinking of businesses in the same way as people is weird. The profits that businesses make go into the pockets of shareholders, many of which are Pension funds, or regular folk with ISA's. Where large numbers of shares are held by individuals... why don't we just tax this income in the same way we tax PAYE? Forget taxing businesses all together. Just tax ALL personal income in exactly the same way no matter how it's derived.

[savvy7]

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Here? Or in real life?

Here - stop posting disingenuously. It does nobody any good. The usual backlash is often quite nasty

In real life - depends on how wealthy. Enough to be generous to local charotoes? Bill Gates? Or just high earners? But mostly just enjoy it, acknowledge you have it, don't pretend to yourself, or anyone else, and don't waste it!

I meant in real life - the point being you can't blame rich people for other people being poor. It is the system that sucks.

[Alsohuman]

Where large numbers of shares are held by individuals... why don't we just tax this income in the same way we tax PAYE?

We do, it has to be declared on your self assessment form.

[Cam77]

With first past the post, the big parties can get away with anything they want. There’ll always be a minimum of 25% of turnout for Labour no matter what (eg, after the Iraq war). And there’ll always be a minimum 30% for Tories no matter what (eg pointless Austerity, public services going to shit etc). They can be completely reckless and still have full power and control of the country, or at least be in touching distance of it. With the support of just 1 in 3 voters. Or about 1 in 5 voting aged adults. It’s fucked.

[LakieLady]

@osbertthesyrianhamster

YANBU. Gap between those who are comfortable and the poor is growing, IME.

The benefits that people on low incomes rely on haven't kept pace with inflation, and the Welfare Reform Act included a myriad of cuts, many of which (eg benefit cap, 2-child rule) were especially hard on families.

Even the rises in minimum wage haven't really helped the working poor much, as the extra pay has been offset by such a high rate of clawback of benefits. Under UC, someone whose wages are just above the tax threshold only gets to keep 25% of any extra income.

[user1497787065]

When I gave up work almost thirty years ago, which was quite usual, to have my son I was earning 15k per year. I filled my car up for £15 and my two bedroomed cottage was valued at about 60k. I'm now struggling to find a job paying more than 18-19k per year after being made redundant due to Covid, filling up my car costs £60 and the property I lived in thirty years ago has recently sold for 250k.

Unfortunately wages have not increased with either property or living costs irrespective of any party politics. They have all had a hand in this.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Can't disagree with that @savvy7.

But I've never wasted any energy looking at my neigbours and feeling put out. That was my BIL/SILs life and it always looked uncomfortable!

[INeedAMinute]

@Bookworm1632

Biden is calling for an international solution to this exact problem as we speak:

www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/us-offers-new-plan-in-global-corporate-tax-talks-1.4532008

Guess which government is currently refusing to back it?

(We're the only country in Europe stalling on this right now, probably the because the Tory Brexit plan is to turn this country into even more of a tax haven for multinationals and high net worth individuals than it already is).

[Cam77]

@bookworm1632
Just tax ALL personal income in exactly the same way no matter how it's derived.

That’s exactly what happens already . I’m afraid the only realistic way of getting MORE money in government coffers (especially with a Tory government) is A) getting the online multinationals to pay proper tax. B) cracking down on tax havens for the super rich.

The EU is/was keen on the second one. Tories not keen on either.

So all that leaves realistically is a better distribution of existing money - Eg prioritizing schools over nuclear weapons. Tories not keen on that either.

There’s a common theme here. Have you spotted it!?

[Cam77]

Of course the Tories are not keen on tacking tax havens. What do yo think the push of half the Tories for Brexit was about at a time when the EU was pushing back strongly against tax havens?
Yes, that’s right! FREEDDOMM (for the elite from paying proper tax)

[emmylousings]

I'm a classic lefty, but let's be clear, the rich / better off already pay the majority of the actual tax take. I'm a low level professional, and I know for a fact that the cost of the services I've had from the welfare state over the years is higher than what I have paid in, and I'm pretty healthy, two easy births, 2 DCs in local school + my own education /university (loans repaid)..people have NO IDEA of the costs of the services they use and take for granted. I am on a below average income and I could afford to pay more tax. The argument about individuals / politicians is circular; they hate raising taxes / people don't vote for it. We get the tax system and the politicians we deserve. I've met lots of people with iPhones / new car leases / annual holidays / and hot tubs (😉) who go mental if you suggest they should maybe pay just a bit more tax.