To be shocked at what happened at ds school today

[Thisismydilemma]

DS is in year 9 and told me that the teacher decided to choose places for the students to sit. (Normally they choose who they sit next to) Which is fine. However, what shocked me was that all the BAME dc were sat together in one row and all the white skinned DC were together in another row. When my ds asked why they had been segrated to the teacher, they told him to keep quiet aibu to raise this with the school?

[PrincessHoneysuckle]

🤔

[LolaSmiles]

smile
I consider each individual child and their needs, rather than assuming PP means a set strategy.
I used to argue this a lot at an old school: do a forces child, a child who's LAC, a child in poverty and a child who was on FSM 5 years ago but now lives with mum and new partner and leads a more affluent lifestyle than many non PP students all have the same barriers?
As a cohort PP students don't perform as well, but I think schools and teachers need to be careful when applying cohort level analysis to individuals.

There was so something interesting on PP progress gaps by school type which suggested overlap attainment for PP differed between ranking of school, but the gap was fairly similar, which seems to suggest to me that if we want to close the gap, the answer lies in improving services outside of school, housing etc.

It's really interesting

[PearlsBeforeWine]

Cool story bro

[pelirocco123]

Just because someone has posted something doesnt mean it happened

[mnistooaddictive]

I once spent ages doing a seating plan for a class. It was only when they arrived and sat where told that I realised the 4 gingers in the class made up the back row and it looked like I had isolated them. I moved it round quickly before senior staff could see and make judgements I hadn’t intended!

[churchandstate]

SmileEachDay

I do consider it. I think the best way to address it is by prioritising the children who need the most help.

[EBearhug]

It might be an exercise to illustrate how racism works. It might be unintended consequences, because if you group by educational abilities or needs, it mght easily reflect correlations with inequalities in different groups.

I would raise it, because whatever the intention was, the OP's child perceived it as racist, and challenged it - which is a good thing, if done respectfully. It doesn't look like there has been an explanation - and it could be that the teacher's view is quite different.

I think it should be discussed with the teacher, because if they were being racist, that's just wrong. On the assumption they weren't, I would want them to take unintended consequences into account and adjust plans accordingly. And if it were my child, I would want them to challenge racism or other discrimination they thought they saw, but I would be happy for the teacher to have some say in how it is done, so it can be raised without interrupting learning. But I wouldn't agree that they should always just accept things and keep quiet - things never change by people just sitting quietly, but some ways of challenging things are going to be more effective than others.

[Lexplorer]

I would have assumed it was done on purpose for Black History month. A discussion is forthcoming I expect

[converseandjeans]

hoxton I think smile has given a good response. Unfortunately PP/underachieving does go hand in hand. However not all PP students under achieve. Similarly not all non PP students achieve what they should.
I personally don't like being asked to seat/focus on students based on PP. They might be PP for a whole host of reasons.
Schools are judged heavily now on how well PP and disadvantaged students perform. So it's not all about having a great cohort of middle class kids who are always going to do well anyway. I suppose it is a better indicator of success?
Back to the original question - I was chatting to a friend who is mixed race and said how as a school we kept trying strategies to integrate everyone but that when given the choice the students automatically go and sit with people from same ethnicity - so all the Somalians sit together, all the white girls sit together and so on. She said it was typical white middle class attitude that we need to split everyone up & that it's natural for people from same background to feel more comfortable with each other & that we shouldn't keep trying to force integration based on what we believe is correct.

[scarecrowfeet]

We are told by SLT to sit sen kids and PP closer to the front.

[hoxtonbabe]

The PP issue interesting ( I hope I’ve not hijacked) I’m more leaning towards @churchandstate way of helping as I would be extremely annoyed if there was even a hint of my son being streamlined in any way based on him receiving PP, he is bright and this has been noted throughout most of his schooling, and the school should be focusing on how he is as an individual rather than because he is on PP so should be bunched with other PP children.

At his primary it was only something like 5% on PP, very small one form school yet the majority of them, and oddly enough the girls all struggled be it with math or English or both. Most came from middle class families but at least half the class used to leave with the TA for extra support. My son and his other friend ( that was also on FSM) and a few of the non PP children used to leave the class once a week for higher maths as the level the class was working at was too easy for him. He appears to be facing this at his secondary school now as he wizzes through it and his math teacher is constantly giving him merits ( I must say I do love her as she fills him with so much confidence) and I’m going to see if she can give him more challenging math, so I’m hoping they aren’t keeping him from reaching his potential simply because on paper he is a PP child.

There is a heads coffee morning next week so I will be asking about that.

[LolaSmiles]

so I’m hoping they aren’t keeping him from reaching his potential simply because on paper he is a PP child.
They shouldn't as it makes no sense to.
Even if you remove the caring for each child angle, it's in the school's interest to have as many PP students excelling because the data looks better (I'm being deliberately oversimplistic here btw).
I'd have a chat with the class teacher first before talking to the head though.

[SmileEachDay]

I do consider it. I think the best way to address it is by prioritising the children who need the most help

It’s not always help though, I don’t think. I teach around 200 children - not all at once, obvs! Whilst I would love to be able to skilfully differentiate and give each child the exact lesson they need, I have to be realistic. So when I’m planning, I look at the lesson “through the lens of disadvantage” particularly wrt vocabulary. I think about the children in my class who are disadvantaged and address their needs first.
When I’m setting up tasks and resources I do the same.

It’s not just about help, I think we can impact more widely.

Although Lola yes, the gap is created far away from school remit and very, very early.

[converseandjeans]

hoxton I agree - I would not want my child treated differently just because of financial circumstances. The PP thing is skewed anyway as in some cases it's because parents are separated - or in well paid jobs where they had a break between jobs so ended up on the register. A good single parent is more use than two useless ones!
I suppose it's good that as a society we're trying now to address the gap in progress. And for the moment PP is a good indicator of this. But your son sounds like he's doing really well.
Middle class families aren't necessarily better - might be too busy working or going from one extra curricular to another. Not necessarily as good as someone on less money.

[hoxtonbabe]

@LolaSmiles

It’s only because it’s a planned meeting for all parents, they are trying to make themselves more accessible and engaging with the parents so apparently they have started this coffee morning, so may as well ask but he’s finding most of the subjects easy ( at the moment) so want to know what the strategy is if it is more than 2 or 3 subjects he’s finding easy but I’m wondering if it’s an individual school thing. My eldest went to a very academic catholic school, he was in the lower set for most subjects as he had SEN ( even though now he’s on the way to a 1st from university but that’s another matter) and one of the mums I used to talk with had a son in the top set and the work I’m seeing my younger son is doing in Y7 is nothing like what the Y7 in the top set at my eldest sons school was doing... it’s almost like the top set in my Y7 sons school is like a 2nd/3rd set in my eldest sons secondary school Iyswim.

English is the only one that he is where he is working at average even though in the top set but I’ve known that would be the case as English has never been his strong point however I plan on getting him some help with that in January as I can see him going downwards if not kept an eye on.

I tell you, had I known all this schooling stuff would have been so much palava I would have stuck to just having a cat and not bother with kids!

[BackforGood]

I have 2 BAME children in one class I teach. They sit next to each other.

Should I sack myself for racism?

My (white) dd and the only other white pupil in her A-level chemistry class sit together - should that not be allowed ? They happen to be friends and get on, but what if one of their Asian or black friends tell their mother about it and the mother raises it as racism . Or should I raise it as my dd being segregated ?

[churchandstate]

think about the children in my class who are disadvantaged and address their needs first.

So do I. But I was PP and not the least disadvantaged in terms of vocabulary. In fact I was head and shoulders above the other students. What should my teacher have done to help me, when there were other non-PP students struggling? PP is a possible indicator but if the help isn’t needed, it’s being wasted IMO.

[donquixotedelamancha]

Oh good, another thread where a teacher is definitely terrible, based on a single incident described by a child.

[MitziK]

As a very able child who grew up in, frankly, bottom of the pile poverty, I'd have been pissed off to be put on what would have been called 'The Poor Table' along with kids with behavioural issues, SEN and low ability never mind sitting next to the unfortunate kid who fucking stunk the place out because her mother couldn't cope with 7 kids aged under 10 and three dogs in a two roomed flat.

Higher achieving PP kids still get less input than the majority of PP, as the pressure is on getting the bulk of PPG to a minimum standard, rather than the couple who will 'be alright anyway'.

[donquixotedelamancha]

But I was PP and not the least disadvantaged in terms of vocabulary. In fact I was head and shoulders above the other students.

This is a great derail to a shit thread. My kids are PP+ and not at all disadvantaged.

The school I teach at often treats PP as synonymous with dumb, which grinds my gears.

[churchandstate]

The school I teach at often treats PP as synonymous with dumb, which grinds my gears.

I’ve had that experience as well. Senior staff talking about PP students in the most patronising terms imaginable, as if a vocabulary gap is an inevitability, as if a lack of cultural capital is a fact. And it really isn’t.

[TriangularRatbag]

BAME is widely used and has been for some time.

To be fair it's a terrible acronym mainly due to being ungrammatical and for confusing adjectives with nouns. These things have a shelf life of about three years in my experience, so I'm biding my time until it's declared inappropriate and we get a new one

(Misses point of thread)

[Thatagain]

That sounds victorian. I would take my dcs out of that school. Although I don't know where they would put me as I am certainly not black nor white. I am a bit of everything. Italian, irish, African, white. With olive skin where would they of put my dc or me if I went to that school? I was born in the uk so was my perents.

[SmileEachDay]

What should my teacher have done to help me

Ensured you were sufficiently challenged?
I don’t think we are suggesting particularly different things, church? Im not sure what you are arguing I am doing differently to you?

[churchandstate]

Ensured you were sufficiently challenged?

Which they did, for the most part.

I don’t think we are suggesting particularly different things, church? Im not sure what you are arguing I am doing differently to you?

Not much, I suspect. Just a difference in emphasis.