to tell you that MNHQ can call the police if they’re worried about you?

[PurpleDaisies]

This is news to me. The official policy is this...

'...on rare occasions where there appears to be a clear need to safeguard the welfare of a Mumsnetter and/or his/her family, it may be necessary to contact relevant authorities'

I am not referencing a specific thread or this will be deleted but I think posters should be aware that this is the case.

[Dutch1e]

smurfy2015 and
You and your team deserve a ton of both

[QueenOfTheTofuTree]

So exactly how suicidal do you have to be before MN will intervene? Are there any specific threats or things they look for which will trigger them to contact the police?

[smurfy2015]

I'm an admin on a fb page which all members are dealing with severe mental illness inc myself, I totally agree with MN on this.

My v first day with a shift one of the members posted to say goodbye and thanks for the support he had been given recently. I could see she was in ongoing crisis reading the admin chat and over the next 11 hours kept her engaged while I found help to trace her in the background, short version she was found beside railway tracks still intent and sectioned for her safely, 10 days later when more lucid she logged in again and sent the loveliest thank you message to the admins, she was disassociated although could interact with the messages just about, we talked about all sorts that day till I could try work out where she was and when she associated back to reality was piecing together what had happened, since then her life has gone from strength to strength and thankfully hasn't been in that hell hole again.

it took one chatting and 4 other admins working on this in the background with someone else holding over the group as needed. It takes teamwork and police were very helpful when contacted and let me know when they found her (nothing more was hoped for)

[goodfornothinggnome]

Honestly, I think it's amazing, and I completely agree with MN being able to alert relevant authorities

[NoCauseRebel]

Can't MNHQ track them down, then? And put a stop to their vile behaviour. I haven't seen any threads of that nature by trolls recently but it always happened not too long ago. no they can’t. This is why so many trolls come back over and over and over again. Change their IP (which is easily done on any network) set up a new email address and they can post again. This is why so many of the trolls keep coming back time after time after time, even the likes of the pooh troll who is just annoying rather than damaging really.

But there are plenty of threads which are dubious but which mn have no way of knowing whether they’re real or not. But posts are deleted here on a daily basis on the basis that they’re a previously banned poster.

Also, with regard to the criminal aspect, there are two types of trolling. The one which is prosecutable is the one where people e.g set up an account on social media in order to post hate speech at/towards other individuals. Making up a persona online isn’t a criminal offence afaik.

[NoCauseRebel]

Well, quite aside from the fact that this is potentially going to remove mn as people’s source of support for e.g. domestically abusive relationships etc, do people really think that the authorities have nothing better to do than to sift through police reports of words on a screen from some username alleging whatever deems as safeguarding risk these days?

The police as well as social services are massively, massively under-funded and resourced. They don’t have the time to respond to the genuine reports that are brought to them first hand at the moment, let alone those from the various internet sites which could or could not be real.

Mental health resources are massively under-funded right now, even if you go to them in person it’s almost impossible to get help, and now we’re adding posts from usernames on random Internet forums into that mix?

Of course there are going to be instances where the authorities will know where something is being posted from. But all mn have to go on is an IP address really. Names and email addresses are always going to be hit and miss because so many people sign up with false names and/or email addresses which don’t relate to their actual name. Plus if you give the authorities an IP address there is still no knowing how many people live at that address and who has been the one posting. They could easily rock up to an address only to be told that no-one posted anything of the sort from there. Suicide isn’t a criminal offence and domestic violence is impossible to prove without evidence/witnesses, so if everyone denies there is absolutely nothing the authorities can do. Equally there seemingly was nothing the authorities could do in yesterday’s situation as the individual kept posting after he claimed they’d shown up at his workplace and started asking for pm’s off board. Assuming they actually did show up which we have no way of knowing.

[backmassageplease]

I've seen trolls post some outrageously horrific posts before, all for a 'laugh' no doubt, and at someone's expense.

Can't MNHQ track them down, then? And put a stop to their vile behaviour. I haven't seen any threads of that nature by trolls recently but it always happened not too long ago.

I'm sure trolling is actually a criminal offence now.

[runandbehappy50]

Well there must be a way

Anyone remember hedgewitch?

SS rocked up, caused massive issues with her and her partner.

[GucciDay]

'highly doubt that people using Mumsnet are taking all of those precautions to remain anonymous, and if they are I would want to give them a cuddle as they sound hopelessly paranoid lol.'

[Slapdasherie]

Surely the fact that there are ways to mask your IP address to remain untraceable means that without these things your IP address is traceable. Otherwise why bother?

[ny20005]

Standard practice for most things now. If you phone a call centre & say something concerning they will phone the police

Everyone has a duty of care now

[GucciDay]

'It’s possible to be depressed as well as manipulative, the two are not mutually exclusive'

Of course depressed people can be manipulative. It was the manipulative arsehole bit that didn't fit with your 'I've absolute sympathy' comment.

[PregnantSea]

And *PGP key, not LPG key! Autocorrect infuriates me sometimes ...

[sailorsdelight]

Yes and it’s as it should be isn’t it?? If someone clearly needs help or is going to do something to harm themselves or others?

[PregnantSea]

*committing, not commuting!

[PregnantSea]

People commuting very serious offences like downloading and sharing child pornography are presumably going to have a VPN, download TOR and use LPG keys to communicate with each other. Tracing someone through all of that is very difficult, if not impossible. I highly doubt that people using Mumsnet are taking all of those precautions to remain anonymous, and if they are I would want to give them a cuddle as they sound hopelessly paranoid lol.

[NoCauseRebel]

No I didn’t. I said that it wasn’t possible to know with absolute certainty where an IP address is because if you’re technically able it’s actually fairly easy to mask your IP address.

And posting how glad you’ll be when your ex is sobbing over your grave is manipulative behaviour. Or next time a poster posts that their ex is threatening suicide because they’ve left shall we tell them that they’re unreasonable for leaving because their ex is clearly depressed? No didn’t think so.

It’s possible to be depressed as well as manipulative, the two are not mutually exclusive. I’m sure that family annihilators are depressed, they still kill themselves and their kids as punishments towards their ex’s though.

[GucciDay]

'Who compared people on mn to pedophiles? '

You suggested if police can locate mn users then they could find paedophiles. I'm suggesting paedophile rings use more sophisticated methods to communicate so it's a silly comparison.

I repeat, don't pretend to have 'absolute sympathy' for distressed depressed posters then call them 'manipulative arseholes'.

[NoCauseRebel]

Who compared people on mn to pedophiles? I said that it’s incorrect to assume that the police can trace who/where you are based purely on an IP address. Not least because you could be one of lots of people in the same property, could be posting from a family computer, could be piggy-backed off the neighbour’s WiFi, could be at work where there are hundreds of other people.

Most people here don’t give their actual name and details when they sign up here, and Mumsnet and other platforms are full of trolls who post for kicks especially in the middle of the night when hq aren’t around. So where does the bar sit with regards to contacting the police? Remember safeguarding is a massive spectrum - we’re not just talking suicide threads here, and what to one is a troll could be considered a genuine post to another. Remember, whenever a thread is widely reported because of things like encouraging off-board PM’s or donations or pure emotive posting the mn hq stance is always that “we can never be sure that anyone on the internet is who they say they are,” so how has this notion been reached that they can’t be sure that anyone online is who they say they are to reporting suspected safeguarding concerns to the police and leaving that decision up to them. Because the police won’t go to every thread that is reported to them just because HQ passes them an email address and an IP.

[GucciDay]

It wasn't immediately removed no but it now has been so you can calm down. A depressed person wanting support isn't the same as 'I'm going to kill myself right now talk me out of it'.

Comparing finding people on a chat forum with paedophiles is utterly ridiculous. All chat forums will have guidelines about contracting police when there's a serious and obvious risk.

If you have 'absolute sympathy' then try not to call the op a 'manipulative arsehole'

[NoCauseRebel]

The insensitive way you talk about the depressed person who started the thread is sickening. Look up empathy and compassion and try it sometime. really? The individual was talking about wanting to see his ex sobbing over his grave. He was talking about the friends he had apparently approached for support and who would get what’s coming once his life was over and they’d regret not helping him. Once the police allegedly turned up he was trying to encourage posters to send him pm’s off board, in fact his pm facility was disabled by hq because of it.

I have absolute sympathy for anyone who is so low they feel that there is no other way out, but let’s not pretend that there aren’t people who use the threat of suicide as an emotional blackmailing tool because there absolutely are.

The thread should have been removed at the very beginning as others have in conjunction with conversations with the Samaritans and other mental health resources. Why wasn’t it? And why have mn hq thus far declined to comment on that fact?

[GucciDay]

NoCauseRebel, you sound very naive.

I'm sure paedophile rings use sophisticated methods and don't log on to mumsnet or similar where I'd guess people are easier to locate.

The insensitive way you talk about the depressed person who started the thread is sickening. Look up empathy and compassion and try it sometime.

[HarrysOwl]

MN have your IP address.

What if you've used a VPN?

[NoCauseRebel]

Your signal can be pinpointed to exactly where you are - I have watched it happen live when investigating fraud when I worked for a mobile phone call centre. bollocks it can. There are plenty of ways to mask an IP address if you have the technical know-how.

I find it interesting that the police can apparently trace someone who “claims” they’re about to commit suicide but there are online pedophile rings all over the world which it seems are impossible to locate with such speed in order to shut them down and catch the perpetrators.

As for the apparent suicide thread, the man sounded like a manipulative arsehole and his ex sounds well rid. and I’m surprised that A, anyone fell for it (not saying he was a troll but definitely a control freak with all his imagining the ex sobbing over his grave bollocks) and B, genuinely thought he was at risk of something. Also why was this thread left to stand when it could have been triggering for others reading it and no-one here has the expertise to deal with suicides. And why have mn hq thus far refused to comment on the situation?

Added to which, for those who claim it’s a good thing, you do realise that this isn’t just about suicide don’t you? Quite apart from the fact that mn isn’t a mental health resource and suicidal threads should be deleted, what about a thread where say, someone is in an abusive relationship and posts here for support in order to gain the strength to leave, will mn be calling the police on the basis it’s a safeguarding risk?

What about someone who lost it as a one off with their kids? Safeguarding risk?

Or what about a situation where an abusive partner wants to have more control over their partner in the access dispute? They create a thread as their partner and claim that they’re abusing the kids, police are notified and bingo, the ex has police intervention for his court reports....

If this is going to become the norm then this is going to remove the source of support for a lot of people who need support in situations which could be perceived as a safeguarding risk in the longer term but where biding one’s time might need to be a consideration.

And while I am generally of the view that the internet is not necessarily an anonymous platform and that posting about your private life publicly always comes at the risk of e.g. being recognised etc, this change in the law to inform the police (who are totally under-resourced as it is) of every possible eventuality is just a step closer to turning the UK into a police state.

That being said, perhaps it will reduce the numbers of DV/suicide/harming the kids trolls that are out there if they think the police are on to them. Would love to have been a fly on the wall when the police turned up to the one yesterday, because I don’t think he was anything like he wanted to portray.

[gamerwidow]

They are a social media platform. They have no more duty of care than reddit or Facebook
It’s a moral duty of care not a legal one and yes these platforms should also exercise it.